Fretboard Memorizing?

Hi,

I am GT student since a year now and went through fundamental 1 and 2 now going thorugh Acoustic 1, so Beginner here.

I have questions about Fretboard memorising.

I tried the Fretboard Trainer in the tools section and see tha the top scores are within 43 sec this month for 20 questions, all time best being 29 sec. Wow!!! congratulation to the winners, some need about 2 sec or less to answer what a fret name is... this brings me to 2 conclusions:

Some are using cheat sheet ;-) (joke)

or

Guitarists memorize the complete fretboard

I understand how the frets name are constructed but really do you guys know the fretboard in memory?

except with open strings and the 12th fret ;-) it takes me ages to deduct a fret name.

How long time did it take you to memorize the fretboard?

Do you need to memorize the fretboard to play well?

Thanks

Originally Posted by: KelenpeGuitarists memorize the complete fretboard[/quote]

This is correct conclusion. :)[br][br]

Originally Posted by: Kelenpe

I understand how the frets name are constructed but really do you guys know the fretboard in memory?

[/quote]

Yes.

[quote=Kelenpe]How long time did it take you to memorize the fretboard?

Not very long once I realized it's just one musical alphabet pattern that keeps repeating over & again.

[quote=Kelenpe]Do you need to memorize the fretboard to play well?

Not necessarily. But it can help. Physical technique is one thing & conceptual knowledge is another.

One thing I've noticed about players that can play well without knowing the notes is that they see the patterns that the notes make on the fretboard. They just don't know those patterns have formal names yet. And once someone points out that those patterns have musical note names then it's a breeze for them to put those 2 things together.

I cover how to do it in this lesson.

https://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=11526&s_id=495

Hope that helps!

Originally Posted by: KelenpeGuitarists memorize the complete fretboard[/quote]

For relative basis of comparison from a fellow stud which might be helpful in conjunction with Christopher's answer/guidence. 2¾ years in now, in my experience as a stud the perspective I've formed is that I think it's inevitable regardless the route one takes if you play long enough, practice frequently and apply yourself. That said, I am still not as instinctive as I'd like to be with it, [u]but that's my own doing[/u]. More on that in a moment. I found there's there's a balance or associative visual crossover applicable Christopher mentioned. For me that was learning, seeing & associatively hearing whilst playing repeatedly and linking the five shapes of the minor pentatonic scale in any key.

Originally Posted by: Kelenpeit takes me ages to deduct a fret name. ..snip....How long time did it take you to memorize the fretboard?

Ref the first part/statement of the quote above. IME that will decrease either with time and growing assimilation through familiarity, or could be accelerated through just learning it rote as if it were the twelve times table being committed to instant parroted memory recall as was in primary/elementary school in my day. I haven't done the latter merely through diversion with other aspects of learning guitar, mainly songs, and the fact that it's pretty dry stuff doing it that way even tenacious as I am and methodical as I can be. I've long recognised the repeating nature of the musical alphabet across the fretboard referenced/anchored by fret markers, both E strings being the more easily memorised ones along its length.

And the second, your question. It's memorising every note on every fret on the other four strings to a point I can [u]instinctively[/u] identify [u]every[/u] note that still eludes me. As admitted to earlier, that's my own doing. Although I'm at a point [u]now[/u] where I recognise a pramatic application in it for me where I could use and would benefit if I did. That wasn't a pragmatic imperative before.

[quote=Kelenpe]Do you need to memorize the fretboard to play well?

The view I'm forming is that I think it's important (for me) to know it to a point of cognizant instinctivity to play ad hoc well rather than just through a series of i.e. rote learnt licks, although being able to play scale shapes in any key can link the licks and notes sufficiently to play very musically with instinctivity without identifying every note played in the process of being played. That's where my outlook is from where I am at present. That may well change as I develop further.

I generally tend to triage [u]need[/u] to [u]learn/know/do[/u] now vs [u]nice[/u] to [u]know[/u] on a pragmatic purpose basis relevant to my short and medium term objectives. That's happening now with a need for instinctive familiarity with the entire fretboard.

Sharpened the axe, should cut that 'tree' faster now.

Thanks both for the replies and advices. It is helpful and encouraging.

@Christopher: Thanks: I watched the video about musical alphabet with great tips about memorizing pratice. I was not aware of that vdeo tutorial series of yours yet. I intend to watch the complete serie this week (music Theory: A brief overview).

@manXcat: Thanks for your experience sharing it is encouraging, I understand that a lot of applied practice will get me there.

I will keep on practicing until associations become instinctives, I will post back the day I pass the fretboard trainer under 60 sec.

Cheers,

It is actually not that difficult, if you know the root 6 and root 5 bar chords then you already know the notes on 3 strings, low and high E and the A string, leaves only 3 more to go; as for the D string, all the notes on that string are a whole tone below the E string so if the 8th fret on the E string is a C then the 8th fret on the D string is a Bb ( little extra here for this string; if you learn the D chord style al along the fretboard then the root is on that D string and you will know these notes already to ), then there is the G string and the B string; easy here to because for the G string the notes are a whole step below the A string and for the B string a whole step above that same A string,

So you see if you can see some system in it then it becomes easy, without a system it will take you a while.

Herman

Glad the replies helped!

Originally Posted by: Kelenpe

@Christopher: Thanks: I watched the video about musical alphabet with great tips about memorizing pratice. I was not aware of that vdeo tutorial series of yours yet. I intend to watch the complete serie this week (music Theory: A brief overview).[/quote][p]Good deal! Hope you enjoy it & learn from it.

[quote=Kelenpe]I will keep on practicing until associations become instinctives, I will post back the day I pass the fretboard trainer under 60 sec.

Great attitude! You can do it. :)

Originally Posted by: Kelenpe

Thanks both for the replies and advices. It is helpful and encouraging.

Was looking at other stuff (Fuzz pedal tones in search of the ideal 1960's fuzz tone), and for some reason as YT logarithms will, this popped up. It's interesting in that Rachel (although 4+ years in), is at a similar place to me regarding her memorisation of the fretboard, with her opinion/perception of necessity of it. Here's a timed link to her comment I found relevant to where I currently am too.

Part 2 here might also interest or be of use to you. From her narrative, I suspect Rachel arrived at awaress of it through the CAGED method. For me, the key opening that door were the minor pentatonic patterns and linking them together which I started and persisted with very early prior to approaching CAGED.

All the best.

I am truly glad to state that, It is an exceptionally intriguing post to peruse. I took in new data from your article, you are working admirably.

YourTexasBenefits

I use the fretboard game regularly and also noted the best times of 23 secs. That has to be very good use of the mouse or whatever. less than 1 sec to recognise the note and then recognise where the correct button is because the button position is totally random.

I now get them correct but my best time is only 1 min 15.

I think at 3 secs per change my songs may be quite jerky.

Manx and Christopher need to do a trail on the game to give us a ballpark time rather than the best of the best of the best.

Dave

Originally Posted by: ddiddlerI use the fretboard game regularly and also noted the best times of 23 secs. That has to be very good use of the mouse or whatever.[/quote]

Yes, that's a good manipulation of the interface.

[quote=ddiddler]Manx and Christopher need to do a trail on the game to give us a ballpark time rather than the best of the best of the best.

I've never used it until now. I tried twice & both times were :58 seconds. A couple of thoughts:

1. I had to parse the image on screen which bares little resemblance to how my Strat looks in my hands when I am playing the guitar. But after a little while it was easy to see which note it is.

2. Most of my time was spent moving the mouse around looking for the right letter amongst the options below the fretboard graphic.

3. I was not in a hurry. I was simply looking at the fretboard to see the note. Then I would move the mouse to the right option below. Point being: correct slowly & methodically is always better than possibly incorrect as fast as possible.

4. A couple of times I couldn't find the answer because I was thinking of a flat note instead of a sharp! I never think of A#, I always think of that note as B-flat. I literally spent a few seconds thinking, "Is this broken or I am missing it?" :) I quickly learned it only uses sharps for accidentals.

I think this is a fine tool as far as it goes. But I think much more quickly with a guitar in my hands playing music.

Originally Posted by: ddiddler

I use the fretboard game regularly and also noted the best times of 23 secs. That has to be very good use of the mouse or whatever. less than 1 sec to recognise the note and then recognise where the correct button is because the button position is totally random.

I now get them correct but my best time is only 1 min 15.

I think at 3 secs per change my songs may be quite jerky.

Manx and Christopher need to do a trail on the game to give us a ballpark time rather than the best of the best of the best.

Dave

Dave I just belatedly spotted this.

[br]I don't use the tool regularly as previously iterated. More on that in a moment.

After reading your post and Christopher's, I went to the tool and here's what I found.

[u]23s is a nonsense[/u]. False. Misleading. Why? Here's what I did to get 23s, and it took me three attempts to get there after working out my strategy.

I started the 'game' and positioned my mouse over B. Started the game and clicked on B repeatedly as soon as it refreshed even using interval anticipation to click instantly as fast as I could for 20 questions. No having to move the mouse, reflex as fast as I could without looking at the fretboard or having to process and respond to any presented information. Just clicked as fast as the game refresh would permit. Conclusion. 23s for genuinely interpreting the image and selecting 20 correct answers is a nonsense.

The only way I could see even close to 23s being attained by a human is this. The 'game' would have to have set number of 20 question and answer patterns which present in a set order rather than randomly generated and those patterns repeat in a cycle. If one played the 'game' long enough to observe this, then determined to learn the order in which each sequence occured, then chose just one to memorise and did so rote. Finally set the game up by rotating through the pattern sets until coming to the rote learnt sequence. GO! With that strategy perhaps close to 23 seconds might be attainable with repetitive practice at it.

But O.o?! Why? Utterly pointless and what a waste of time which could be better put to use using the trainer honestly for anyone genuinely wanting to learn the fretboard with it.

Now back to the GT Fretboard Trainer tool. Over the next month (January '21) I'll give it daily attention so as to thoroughly familiarise myself with using it, and then do half a dozen sequential self-tests and present the (honest) best and mean time result achieved. I seriously doubt I could get near Christopher's potential best time even taking into account it is a 'game' vs intuitively fingering the real fretboard in action. Visually interpret the presented info, process, response, a large part of which is total familarity and comfort with the tool. I reckon 3 seconds per answer for a time of circa 60s for 100% accuracy is honest. Whether getting down to around 2~2½ seconds per answer for 40+ sec is attainable for me we'll see.

Given the limitation imposed by the mechanics of the game, I'll be better placed to offer you my perspective on those scores in the 30+ second bracket when I finish the exercise above. For now, I think that with demonstrated reflex responses and mental agilty like that those high scorers should probably reconsider a career as a fast military jet pilot rather than guitarist. = P

IMV taking into account [u]the ergonomic mechancis of the 'game'[/u], a consistent 75s or 3.75s per answer for a correct 20 answers you're attaining now is a respectable result and solid progress for where you are given your elapsed time with guitar here. Well done!.

manXcat

thanks to both of you for giving it a go.

Yes to all of Christophers answer.

It's a useful tool in it's own way.

I did feel it was purely the mechanics of moving a mouse to the particular tab which set the time as much as the thought process of finding , recognising the note on the fretboard and then the correct tab.

I'm happy I'm getting right answers most of the time and the wrong answer is usually a silly response being too quick and not recognising incorrect string.

It is what it is.

Dave

ps Happy New Year and thanks for all the useful responses to my not always useful questions. 2021. The year I crack this guitar malarky

Hi,

Just few updates ,these last weeks I feel that I now see through the fretboard patterns.

Thanks all for your support. I have practice the octave navigation methods and memorization is getting into place.

I feel that I will soon "know kung-fu" :-)

Agree with manXcat, I also think that the 23 sec records are not possible. Anyway I find the tool useful as brain memory gymnastic. It is surely not a goal on its own... I now come down do 1min 30 sec for a 20/20 result. I feel it can be improved again and I am faster than few weeks ago now that I see the patterns on the fretboard.

FYI, I use a touch screen which speed up my answer to the Fretboard Trainer (my laptop screen got is also touchscreen).

Also to add on the topic, by looking for this post I found an older one which is related with useful tips from Christofer Schlegel:

https://www.guitartricks.com/forum/thread.php?f=8&t=47022

Anyway, I will keep practicing... I am now starting my second year with GT program, and I must say that as beginner I underestimated this forum which is very useful to get help from teachers and more experienced folks.

So thanks again an Happy new year, Cheers.

Originally Posted by: manXcatThe 'game' would have to have set number of 20 question and answer patterns which present in a set order rather than randomly generated and those patterns repeat in a cycle.[/quote]

Good observation. And I'm pretty sure practicing guitar would be a better investment of time.

Originally Posted by: manXcatVisually interpret the presented info, process, response, a large part of which is total familarity and comfort with the tool. I reckon 3 seconds per answer for a time of circa 60s for 100% accuracy is honest. Whether getting down to around 2~2½ seconds per answer for 40+ sec is attainable for me we'll see.

Good reasoning. I certainly wasn't trying to "Go fast!" :) I was just trying to get the right answers. Maybe if I practiced playing the game I could get faster, but that's diminishing returns. After all, once you know the notes, it's time to play music on the guitar instead of the internet game.

[quote=manXcat]For now, I think that with demonstrated reflex responses and mental agilty like that those high scorers should probably reconsider a career as a fast military jet pilot rather than guitarist. = P

Haha! Yes, or maybe a code breaker. :)

On more observation. In many situations, the player decides the notes that will be played by thinking about which notes or chords they choose, or by deciding on a musical event, pattern, or whole song.

Once you initiate that choice, you set in motion the chain of events that are to occur: some specific series of musical events (notes, scales, chords, progressions, song forms) that require a great deal of automated physical motions ("muscle memory").

In this game there is no musical event or pattern.

There is a parallel to reading sheet music that occurs here. You look at the music to prompt you, like you look at the game interface. And then you have to react.

But even then, when you are sight reading you don't react in one note blocks in which the next random note is hidden from view! You can & must look ahead & see how one note leads to the next, to form an integrated pattern of musical events.

I think the fretboard trainer can be helpful to beginners. But it's ultimately of limited value. Once you know the notes, use them to play music!

Originally Posted by: ddiddler

thanks to both of you for giving it a go.

Yes to all of Christophers answer.[/quote]

Good deal!

Originally Posted by: ddiddlerI did feel it was purely the mechanics of moving a mouse to the particular tab which set the time as much as the thought process of finding , recognising the note on the fretboard and then the correct tab.

Absolutely.

[quote=ddiddler]Happy New Year and thanks for all the useful responses to my not always useful questions. 2021. The year I crack this guitar malarky

Happy new year to you & yours! Here's to a 2021 filled with successful guitar malarky! :)

Originally Posted by: Kelenpe

I have practice the octave navigation methods and memorization is getting into place.

I feel that I will soon "know kung-fu" :-)[/quote]

Good deal. That's the most successful method I have used for decades with students!

Originally Posted by: KelenpeAlso to add on the topic, by looking for this post I found an older one which is related with useful tips from Christofer Schlegel:

https://www.guitartricks.com/forum/thread.php?f=8&t=47022

Good find! I typed it all out there!

https://www.guitartricks.com/forum/thread.php?f=8&t=47022

[quote=Kelenpe]Anyway, I will keep practicing...

It's the only way to get better! Glad you found the forum. Happy new year to you & yours!

Originally Posted by: KelenpeJust few updates ,these last weeks I feel that I now see through the fretboard patterns. Thanks all for your support. I have practice the octave navigation methods and memorization is getting into place.

This.

By [u]repetition[/u] and importantly [u]association[/u] is the effective and meaningful way to develop [u]instinctive[/u] memory.

For guitar I use a combination of repetition playing and reciting the notes rote in their own kind of '12 times table' (12 naturals and accidentals) up and down the respective 6 strings from the nut to and beyond the 12th fret, and the same with the five Pentatonic minor and major scale shapes where association really kicks in associating every position of the respective root note and its octaves across and along the neck in the key in which I am playing.

All the best with your guitar goals for the forthcoming year Kelenpe.

P.S. Sighting your signature, Yamaha Pacifica 112V and APX600, nicely paired tools for the task. What I chose to start out with too. Electric first in late October the year I started, and acoustic two months later. They've each served me very well for the past three years and continue to serve without any limitation entering as a factor. Mine in traditional OVS and NT 'flavours'. As evident by my 'show and tell' links, I'm still as besotted with them as the day I bought them, and they both receive regular use during each week even with the option of alternatives available.

Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegelMaybe if I practiced playing the game I could get faster, but that's diminishing returns. After all, once you know the notes, it's time to play music on the guitar instead of the internet game.[/quote]

Concur 100%. I practise what you preach above.

Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegelOn more observation. In many situations, the player decides the notes that will be played by thinking about which notes or chords they choose, or by deciding on a musical event, pattern, or whole song.

Once you initiate that choice, you set in motion the chain of events that are to occur: some specific series of musical events (notes, scales, chords, progressions, song forms) that require a great deal of automated physical motions ("muscle memory").[/quote]

Concise written précis. Thank you. Reaffirms and reinforces in part Helen's short but helpful pragmatic broad brush delivery on the topic here which resonated with me on a (musically) sensual and spirtitual level.

Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegelIn this game there is no musical event or pattern.

[quote=ChristopherSchlegel]There is a parallel to reading sheet music that occurs here. You look at the music to prompt you, like you look at the game interface. And then you have to react.

But even then, when you are sight reading you don't react in one note blocks in which the next random note is hidden from view! You can & must look ahead & see how one note leads to the next, to form an integrated pattern of musical events.

[p]

Exactly. There's no musical sequence where one can anticipate associatively from the phrase and key words with the 'sentence'. A similar analogy I'd relate occurs in aviation RT comms where, one of the purposes of rote set phrases beside standardisation and minimisation of frequency occupation per communication is that they inadvertantly serve anticipation of what's coming. I know for instance the sequence instructions with be given to me by Area, Approach and Tower control respectively as I am handed off sequentially and can [u]anticipate[/u] and [u]give my attention[/u] to the instructions and parameters following the key words, divergent instructions, headings, tracks, altitudes, e.g. "(Callsign) XYZ Good evening, radar identified, turn left heading 340 to intercept the 190 radial, descend to FL140, report established". Instinctive subliminal discernment and SNR filtering.

[quote=ChristopherSchlegel]I think the fretboard trainer can be helpful to beginners. But it's ultimately of limited value. Once you know the notes, use them to play music!

Thanks. My take too.

Originally Posted by: manXcat

Concise written précis. Thank you. Reaffirms and reinforces in part Helen's short but helpful pragmatic broad brush delivery on the topic here which resonated with me on a (musically) sensual and spirtitual level.[/quote][p]She demonstrates some good, practical examples of how to develop musical phrases from scale patterns. Interesting how she points out that simply playing a scale without creating motifs (musical ideas or phrases) in boring & robotic. It's true, but unfortunately in some people's minds that adds up to "scales are bad".

But then she immediately shows that she is very well aware of, can play & use the various pentatonic boxes/patterns. But she shows how to use them to make musical phrases & ideas! Well done!

The lesson here is that scales are essential, but not ends in themselves.

[quote=manXcat]A similar analogy I'd relate occurs in aviation RT comms where, one of the purposes of rote set phrases beside standardisation and minimisation of frequency occupation per communication is that they inadvertantly serve anticipation of what's coming.

Good example. Perceptual ease & conceptual clarity. Precise & concise, maximum brevity, zero filler. Especially important since so much is at stake when flying a plane!

Good observations, thanks!

Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegelThe lesson here is that scales are essential, but not ends in themselves.

Thanks. Again can't but concur 100%.

Personally speaking I didn't interpret Helen's "boring" comment to infer scales were bad, but that playing a whole scale pattern (pick any one) mechanically (the instances she demonstrated) sounds boring as in uninteresting musically to the ear.

I can most definitely see your point though, that in todays' increasingly idiocratic world, some might just interpret that as 'scales are boring'.

As to learning and/or regularly practicing scales and perception of their importance. Fortunate in being able to find ways to enjoy necessary repetiitive tasks by finding the challenge in them, or discipline myself in seeing the purpose in the objective on days when it just feels like slog rather than avoiding them.

Possibly something to do with brought up up in an authoritarian era reciting the twelve times table rote first thing in class every morning, or as a very young man immersed in military (E)DIP learning weapon stripping drills commited rote knowing every part and sequence you could strip and assemble blindfolded (in the dark), or later committing IA checklists i.e. engine fire, emergency decompression, to memory along with actioning the in concert with their IA drills for in flight emergencies or fail (there's no '90% right' pass, 'everyone including the first last gets a star' on a company check ride). Those skills now serve me well adapted to learning guitar.