time signatures

greetings guitarists,
can anyone please explain to me what does time signatures mean? for example,4over4,2over4,3over4,6over8,.

and what does half note ,quarter nota,eighth notes,dotted half note mean?

can u guys also put up some links i could learn about time signatures.

[Edited by dev on 06-05-2003 at 01:34 AM]

4/4 is standard timing..its 4 notes per measure and each note gets a quarter note i believe..as for all thes dotted notes queter notes eith notes 16th notes..those just tell you how long the note should last..look on the web for some resourcse and check out azreals polyrythmics or somthin like that..it should explain bout different timings

Yeah the whole note, half note stuff all pertains to how long you hold the note.

In a time signature, the top number tells how many beats are in each measure. The bottom number tells what kind of note gets one beat.

For example, 2 over 4 means:

2 means two beats in each measure. 4 means the quarter note gets one beat.

As far as half note dot goes, a dot after a note adds half the value of the note.

For example, if you had 3 quarter notes and then a half note dot under 3/4 measure you would count it like this:

1 2 3 |1 2 3
quar-ter quar-ter quar-ter |half note dot

Notice how in the above, the measure contains 3 beats.

Another example to help clarify (hopefully):
Let's try 4/4 timing with 2 quarters, a half note, and then a whole note. (remember 4 beats in each measure and the quarter note gets one beat)

1 2 3 4 |1 2 3 4
quar-ter quar-ter half note |whole note keep holding

Hope that helps. :)

*edit*
The numbers got messed up. The numbers go directly over the beginning of each word.

1
quar-ter

Like that...if you still don't understand it, I'll paste it into a text file and e-mail it to you.

[Edited by Pantallica1 on 06-05-2003 at 11:41 PM]

Aside from the duration of notes, how many beats in a measure, and what note gets a single beat. A time signature indicated the feel of the music. This is what distinguishes time signatures like 2/2 and 4/4. If you were to just look at it as how many beats a measure and what note gets a beat, you could say a piece of music written in 4/4 could also be written in 2/2 as well. Alittle translation of notes and this could easily be done and then confused, if you don't understand the true logic behind time signatures. The difference between 2/2 and 4/4 is the feel and flow of the beats. Drummers will be more familiar as calling them either upbeats or downbeats. This is still important to any other musician cause it gives the music flow. Now look at how 2/2 and 4/4 are different in this manner.

2/2 consists of a strong upbeat then a weaker upbeat. Sort of like this if you were to count it.

2/2 - 1(accented upbeat) 2 (regular upbeat)

Now 4/4 is the same as 2/2 in starting with an accented upbeat and then a regular downbeat, but it contains 2 downbeats which are in between the 2 upbeats. Sort of like this.

4/4 - 1(accented upbeat) 2 (downbeat) 3 (regular upbeat) 4 (downbeat)

Now you may see 2/4 and think how it fits with this pattern. Well it's an accented upbeat, then a downbeat. 3/4 is probably the most recognizable with this logic, because it is the waltz signature. Now if you've ever seen people being shown the waltz, they're always counting it, 1, 2, 3. And 1 is always accented, apply that to the above signatures.

Hopefully that makes sense. To a beginning musician this probably seems practically useless, but it is very powerful knowledge when it comes to writting and understanding music. Very Powerful.

Go check my polyrythmics tutorial:

Polyrythmics Tutorial

However this is just ONE of the possibilities of understanding time signatures - the same thing can be done with whole measures.. gotta update that section to make it a complete tutorial some day soon.. hopefully *L*

hmmm. What does polyrhythmics have to do with time signatures?? Polyrhythmics at least to me, refer to rhythm or most importantly the division of a rhtyhm. And time signature has to do with feel. I could mistaken but polyrhythmics doesn't explain time signature. A 5:4 polyrhytmic is just 5 notes played in equal duration of 4. It could be 5 quarters played in 4 quarters, or 5 sixteenth in 4 sixteenth regardless of the time signature. It's almost like your saying a 5:4 polyrhythmic is the same as a 5/4 time signature, if you were to play a 5:4 poly of quarter notes over a 4/4 time signature. Well that makes 5 beats a measure right, so it could be a 5/4 time signature rather than a 5:4 poly or however you would say it. See what I mean by they don't help understand time signatures. A 5/4 time signature is a compound (2 time signatures put together to make one) time signature made up of 3/4 and 2/4. A 5:4 polyrhythm is just 5 notes played equally in the time it takes to play 4 of those notes. A triplet (3:2) is probably the best way to explain it. 3 notes played in the duration of 2.

Time signature 5/4
here's what they mean:
5 - beats per measure
4 - what note gets a beat (in this case a quarter), this also indicates the feel. Is it a quarter note feel, eighth, or sixteenth, or so on.

Polyrhythmics 5:4
here's what they mean:
5 - how many notes are played
4 - what duration the number of notes is equal to.
The notes are always the same, so if you have 5 quarter notes. They would be equal to the duration of 4 quarter, you should see how the division works.

Tempo is always the speed at which the music moves at. Rhtyhm NEVER dictates speed.

These three terms never explain each other. Everything in music will make sense it you don't confuse them.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 06-10-2003 at 01:44 PM]

i think you havent exactly read my tutorial nore my post - i said it is ONE of the possibilities - of course a 5/4 rythm is not the same as a quater-quintuplet. and i did never say that it was. sorry if you found my words misleading. and as for the time signatures - you can aswell use them as polyrythmics - thats another possibility - because you can play a 5/4 measure over a 7/8 measure - that also creates polyrythms but is not the same as beat divisions like i explained in my tutorial.

[Edited by Azrael on 06-10-2003 at 04:21 PM]

I read it and understood it, I just don't think polyrhythmics explain time signatures. I can see how you get what your saying, but what part of a time signature does it explain??? Fitting a 5/4 measure to a 7/8 is possible by expanding the duration of notes into polyrhythmics so it fits within a 7/8 measure. I get that. But again that's just rhythm or the duration of notes in a 7/8 T.S. Time Signatures are a completely different perspective of music, they indicate feel. Rhythm is just the duration of notes, same with polyrhythmics. They don't explain each other, that's all I'm saying. Althought the concept your saying is rather kool.

Somebody listen to Michael Breckers "Tale of Two Rhythms" off of Escher Sketch and tell me what the time signature is.

For an example of 7/4 check out Peter Gabriels Salsbury Hill (not that anybody asked)

Ahh..rhythm, the last unexplored musical frontier. Rhythmic Modulation is another cool thing to check out.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
Fitting a 5/4 measure to a 7/8 is possible by expanding the duration of notes into polyrhythmics so it fits within a 7/8 measure. I get that.

No you didnt get it.

I´m not talking about streching notes in that certain case.
Letz explain it with an easier example: 3/4 over 4/4

Letz say the drummer lays down a 4/4 beat with the normal 4/4 feel on temop 120. Now the guitarrist Plays a 3/4 riff with the typical 3/4 feel on tempo 120 at the same time. So in the first measure the 1, 2 and 3 of both rythms are th same - when the drummer is on 4 the guitarrist is on 1 again and so on untill both meet on 1 again. Thatz what i meant by using different time signatures as polyrythms. And that is a different way than the stuff i explained in my tutorial - thatz why i said i gotta update it some day.

I think the problem is, that we both understood the question differently - he asked "what is 6 over 8" 6 over 8 is not a 6/8 rythm - it is 6 notes played in the time of 8(which is a bit unusual for normally you would rather play more notes in the time of less like 10 over 8 for example - not vice versa - but it is still possible). this does also not automatically mean that it refers to a whole measure. You can have a 9 over 8 in a 5/4 beat. Like the first quater is payed normal and the rest of the measure (would notmally be four 4ths - or eight 8ths) is filled with 9 equal notes in the time of the remaining 8.

As you see you can do hundreds of variations with that stuff - what you where explaining to him was normal measures and their feel - what i was explaining where polyrythmics.

[Edited by Azrael on 06-11-2003 at 01:30 AM]

Originally posted by chris mood
Somebody listen to Michael Breckers "Tale of Two Rhythms" off of Escher Sketch and tell me what the time signature is.

Is this another quiz?? haha. If not, and your really trying to figure it out. If it has a drum track, listen for the first 2 beats. Usually bass then snare, start it off as counting the bass as one, then the snare as 2. Before moving on, see if there is a hi-hat or ride cymbal. If so count how many hits they get between the first 2 beats (bass, snare). If there were none in between those two beats, and they were hit at the same time the bass and snare were; the bottom number is 4. If there was one in between the bass and snare, the number would be 8. If there were 4 hits between them, the number would be 16. You can probably see where this is going. Now countinue counting until a measure is up. What number did you land on, that will be your top number. If you were in between numbers, you know you'll have a time signature like 7/8 or something like that. But let's say it ends half way between 4 and 5, the time signature is probably 9/8 (following the bottom number rule above). That's one way of possibably figuring it out. The fail safe approach is to understand the feel of the music. I don't have the song or I would tell you. Maybe someone else does, but I hope that made sense.

Az -

Ok. I thought you meant stretching a 3/4 into a 4/4 time signature by using polyrhythmics. Which is very possible by transposing the rhtyhm into 3:2 triplet in halfnotes. I think you understand what I'm trying to say. I really wish you could illustarte written music on here. Now how you were going to use the same method with 5/4 to 7/8, is a very interesting topic. I'm guessing it would work out as something like this.

Change the 5/4 to 10/8. Then place the 10/8 over the 7/8, and you can squeeze the 10/8 into the 7/8 by using a polyrhytmic of 10:7, then just figure out the rhythm accordingly. Now that would be interesting to hear. :) haha.

I dunno I think that is how it's done. Might be cool if you would add that into your polyrhtyhmic section on your tricks, Az. It's a compelling idea.

A Tale of 2 Rhythms is a song Micheal Brecker wrote were every instrument (Bass, keys, drums , and sax) is playing in a different time signature. It's pretty cool, definetely worth a listen.

My goodness, do I have a different take on this subject.
Everything is one. On average, the most notes an average person can play on any one beat is 7. Most of music is one, two, three or four notes per one beat. 98 percent of the time, you can divide a beat into 1, 2, 3 or 4. Time signature, more or less, is a reading and writing device.

In computer writing, I've yet to find a program that I can write advanced rhythmic notation. Even a simple duple. Cake can do a reasonable and readable triplet. To write an advanced rhythmic figure within the computer, one must devise an algorithm (modifying time signature and tempo) to make the figure sound and look correct.

Originally posted by griphon2
My goodness, do I have a different take on this subject.
Everything is one. Time signature, more or less, is a reading and writing device.

If everything is one, how do you know which time signature to write in?? I think the understanding of how to count a certain time signature helps tremendously with getting a groove or feel for music.

Originally posted by griphon2
On average, the most notes an average person can play on any one beat is 7.

You definitely have a different perception of time signature, because the amount of notes in one measure can be just about anything. It's true that most rhythms that are played on a guitar hardly go over such a number, but to a drummer this would be terribably wrong. Some drum parts will reach up to 64th notes, and have 12-16 hits per beat. It's always time signature is the feel of the music, tempo is the speed at which at feel moves at, and rhythm is the duration of a note within that time signature.

Originally posted by griphon2
Most of music is one, two, three or four notes per one beat. 98 percent of the time, you can divide a beat into 1, 2, 3 or 4.

Dividing a beat is a job for rhythm not time signature. That's where you get the whole mathematics of rhythm, like in 4/4 a quarter note gets one beat, and you can divide that into 2 eighth notes, 4 sixteenth notes, and so on.

I'm not trying to change your ways, if it works for you, great stick with it. But you may learn something extremely valuable if you look into how the time signature and the feel of the music are related.

Originally posted by griphon2
In computer writing, I've yet to find a program that I can write advanced rhythmic notation. Even a simple duple. Cake can do a reasonable and readable triplet. To write an advanced rhythmic figure within the computer, one must devise an algorithm (modifying time signature and tempo) to make the figure sound and look correct.

Powertab. Go to Powertab.net and downloaded it's a kick arse guitar notation editor. You can write polyrhythms with it. On the bottom tool bar, right by the triplet icon, you see "|9:8|". The rest is self-explanatory.

Time signatures have nothing to do with feel. All time signatures do is give you a place to start in terms of reading. Time signatures and tempo markings are two different entities. Feel is another separate entity. Straight eights and swing eights are written exactly the same. The straight eights are read as triplets in swing and a good deal of bebop. Straight eights make the reading easier.

"If everything is one, how do you know which time signature to write in??"

It's either 3 or 4 in some form, most of the time. If you want to accent the next beat, have at it. What difference does it make where you start? 3 is three and 4 is four. Variations only occur to make the music more complicated.
This is simply a math question. The various ways that people view math will control how it's written on paper.
Playing and reading/writing are two different items. Reading/writing takes tons of practise and experience.

"Some drum parts will reach up to 64th notes, and have 12-16 hits per beat."

Granted. But I haven't met the person that could count out loud 12 or 16 taps at tempo marking of 120 or 100, for that matter.

I'll give powertab a gander, but I sincerely doubt, it does what I am saying. For example:

/ / / /|
1 a seven note figure (evenly)
2 a duple
3 a triplet
4 2 eigth notes
These are beat 1 thru 4.

Again, time signatures only give one a place to start. X=X.

Originally posted by griphon2
Time signatures have nothing to do with feel. All time signatures do is give you a place to start in terms of reading. Time signatures and tempo markings are two different entities. Feel is another separate entity.

I have to disagree; time signature has everything to do with feel. The easiest example to understand is the Waltz. 1, 2, 3. 1 is accented. 3/4 has a particular feel to it. Like when you dance to a waltz, you always step on 1. Then you count 2, and 3. The tempo tells you how fast you count. Now the feel is from the way your counting 1, 2, 3, repeat. Now what I was asking is how would distinguish 3/4 or 3/8 or 6/8 or even 1/1 (like you said "I count them as one beat a measure or something")?? Each one has a different way for counting the beats, or different feel. This is the feel I'm talking about; maybe you think I'm talking about something else.

Originally posted by griphon2
Straight eights and swing eights are written exactly the same. The straight eights are read as triplets in swing and a good deal of bebop. Straight eights make the reading easier.

Swing feel is just counting the beat in a swinging fashion. An example is someone swinging on a swing set, and counting each time the time the person swings from one end of the set to the other. The result is counting the beats in a swinging fashion. Well you should get the idea. Man this is hard to explain in writing. Triplet feel is completely different. A triplet feel is taking an ordinary 4/4 T.S and counting it in triplet fashion. It’s something like what I thought Azreal was trying to say with polyrhythms, somewhat. But instead of squeezing a polyrhythm like 5:4 into a 4/4 T.S, your taking a 3:2 (triplet ratio) and turning it into 4/4, by writing the rhythm in 4/4 but having it sound like a triplet. I hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by griphon2
If you want to accent the next beat, have at it. What difference does it make where you start?

Originally posted by griphon2
Again, time signatures only give one a place to start. X=X

Are you contradicting yourself?? ;) A time signature has nothing to do with where you start the music. You can start it on the first beat, or you can start it anywhere in between.

Originally posted by griphon2
It's either 3 or 4 in some form, most of the time. 3 is three and 4 is four.

Ehhh. Yeah in some form I guess, that is if you’re talking about the top number of a T.S. The number can be just about any number. Take 6/8, which is a compound time signature, meaning it is made up of 2 time signatures. 3/8 and 3/8. The same applies to 5/4, which is made up of 3/4 and 2/4, giving it a sense of incompleteness. Hopefully you can hear a song and at least tell if it is either a 4/4 or a 5/4. I don't know cause you said you count everything as one. This is where the whole “feel” thing that I’m talking about comes in.

Originally posted by griphon2
Variations only occur to make the music more complicated.
This is simply a math question. The various ways that people view math will control how it's written on paper.

So it would be ok to write something that is a waltz in 4/4?? Mathematics will allow this just because those numbers can be equaled. It is much more than just mathematics, granted math does play a role though.

Originally posted by griphon2
Playing and reading/writing are two different items. Reading/writing takes tons of practice and experience.

By being able to read music you can play the music the way it is meant to be played. Time signature always gives you the feel even if you’re just taping your foot along with your playing, or most importantly having a drummer. When writing it helps you organize your music alot better, than if you didn’t understand the concept of T.S.

Originally posted by griphon2
Granted. But I haven't met the person that could count out loud 12 or 16 taps at tempo marking of 120 or 100, for that matter.

Look at my post again. I’m talking about 12-16 notes in one single beat, not a measure. If you don’t understand you definitely should look into this cause you don’t got it. I’m telling you look into it cause it will help you out a lot more than you think.

Originally posted by griphon2
I'll give powertab a gander, but I sincerely doubt it does what I am saying. For example:

/ / / /|
1 a seven note figure (evenly)

Yeah. Powertab can write 7 notes equally, I explained that. They are called polyrhythmics. Like if you were trying to play 7 notes equally in a 4/4 time signature. You would write 7 quarter notes, and write the ratio as 7:4.



[Edited by noticingthemistake on 06-16-2003 at 11:24 PM]

Originally posted by noticingthemistake

Like if you were trying to play 7 notes equally in a 4/4 time signature. You would write 7 quarter notes, and write the ratio as 7:4.

More common would be to write it as 7:8 and not as 7:4 because 4/4 beat = eight 8th notes

when talking about 7:4 it would mean you squeeze 7 QUATERnotes in the time of 4 - this is just a technical question - the correct form (to write it down )is in 8th notes.

Btw - it does not automatically mean that groupings of 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, etc have to fill the whole measure. they can fill just a beat or even parts of the beat. you can also include rests into such a grouping. there are countless ways

I wrote 7:4 to illustrate how 7 beats in 4/4 could be squeezed into what would equal 4 beats, since theres 4 beats a measure and the quarter note is equal to a beat. 7:4 is the same rhythm as 7:8. But yeah your right Az that is how it is correctly written as a polyrhythm. Thanx.

Think what you want. You ain't getting what I am saying.
3/4 is 3 quarters to the bar. Nothing more nothing less.
4/4 is 4 quarters to the bar. Nothing more nothing less.
3/2 is 3 halfs to the bar. Nothing more nothing less.
6/8 is 6 eigths to the bar. Nothing more nothing less, unless you do the math. It's mostly in two. Two sets of triplets.

Polyrhythms are abundant from baroque to modern jazz AND classical. The way they're taught is horrifying. How many possibilies exist on just ONE beat? Physically or mentally. (perididdles and the pentultimate) come to mind. Most people shift from one beat to the next. As a listening person, most have no clue of the time signature. People that write in odd ball time signatures, will not be played, and in my view, shouldn't. This might have been cool to do long ago, it's not cool now. It's far too erudite and lonely.

And as for 7:4 or 9:8, you ain't listening. My example was a 4/4 bar. I've yet to see a program do what
I ask it, without modifying the algorithms.

Like it or not, that's the way it is. Programs are performance oriented. No one can literally write a performance and be readable. What exist is a facsimile.
Sorry.

Refuting what others say, is certainly not very kind. Especially in a forum called guitartricks.

Originally posted by griphon2
Think what you want. You ain't getting what I am saying.
3/4 is 3 quarters to the bar. Nothing more nothing less.
4/4 is 4 quarters to the bar. Nothing more nothing less.
3/2 is 3 halfs to the bar. Nothing more nothing less.
6/8 is 6 eigths to the bar. Nothing more nothing less, unless you do the math.

Yeah your right. But your missing the point I'm trying to explain to you. Ok, let's say I play a Waltz (3/4) and then I play something in 4/4?? Do you think you could physically tell the difference in time signature? Now I know you can and this is what I'm talking about, "feel". Even if you were to just count it, and always accent the 1. 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, and then 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4. I garantee you are getting it. Now the bottom number is the other half of the feel. To explain this is to start with 1, meaning whole beat gets a beat. For this you would be counting a strong beat every beat. Like 1/1 or 4/1, which will have 4 strong beats per measure. Now cut that whole beat in half, and you need up with the bottom number being a 2. This is why they call it "cut time". The 1 which is always a strong beat, but now 2 becomes a normal beat. Cut the whole beat into quarters and you end up with quarter time, or 4/4. 1 the strong beat, 2 a downbeat, 3 a normal beat, and 4 a downbeat. You should see where this is going, and you should be able to fill in the rest. That's time signature in a single paragraph. Now you should be able to understand why they have 3/4 and 3/8. It isn't just a free choice on which one you like better, or which note you want to equal to a beat. There is a much deeper logic to it. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to help you cause it does help to understand this. It's kind of scary cause you seem really knowledgable with music theory and just music in general, but yet you don't understand something this simple.

Originally posted by griphon2
Polyrhythms are abundant from baroque to modern jazz AND classical.

Well there everywhere. Metal solos especially.

Originally posted by griphon2
How many possibilies exist on just ONE beat? Physically or mentally. (perididdles and the pentultimate) come to mind.

Unlimited. That's the beauty of music today opposed to classical times, it's not as strict.

Originally posted by griphon2
Most people shift from one beat to the next. As a listening person, most have no clue of the time signature.

This is absolutely true. Im teaching a friend of mine right now and she had no clue. I actually had to count it for her a few times before she could even grasp 4/4. Some people on the other hand are just natural at it, and they pick it up right then. But understanding time signatures is what seperates the men from the boys. You may be able to play the craziest licks, but it's the way you play that makes people really get into what your playing. It also makes you much tighter cause then you can mentally understand the music you are playing on amuch higher level than someone who doesn't get it.

Originally posted by griphon2
People that write in odd ball time signatures, will not be played, and in my view, shouldn't. This might have been cool to do long ago, it's not cool now. It's far too erudite and lonely.

I'd disagree. But that could be just a personal taste, although there are many bands that pull it of quite well. Pink Floyd to name one.

Originally posted by griphon2
And as for 7:4 or 9:8, you ain't listening. My example was a 4/4 bar. I've yet to see a program do what
I ask it, without modifying the algorithms.

Like it or not, that's the way it is. Programs are performance oriented. No one can literally write a performance and be readable. What exist is a facsimile.
Sorry.

Now I'm not even sure what it is your actually talking about. :confused: Unless you've found a new way to actually write music, I'm sure there are many programs that can reproduce it. Although this may be a cause of misunderstanding time signatures. You might be thinking of something in one T.S when indeed it is another. This is very common to someone who is lacking in this understanding. Because the terms used in writting music today can cover whatever your trying to do accurately and simply.

Just trying to help you out man. If you don't want my help thats cool and but it's there. :)