Seeing as Bush has won (the popular vote, anyway)

Originally Posted by: SLYUnfortunately , terrorists will always win :( ... You can't beat someone who's willing to die , while the the best you can do is to kill him.

War against terrorism can only be won by reason through media and communications , not by pissing terrorists and giving their leaders like OBL a reason (like the war in Iraq) to convince more of his naive students to go suicide bombing somewhere.

Terrorists will always win? It's statements like that, that scare me. Saying that is exactly what the terrorists and Osama Bin Laden want you to think. Osama wants to get inside our heads, he wants us to think that they have won, but they really have not. Obviously Terrorist's have gotten the best of you, and manipulated you into thinking that. They have stripped you of your faith in America. The only thing terrorists have won over, is the minds of people like you. Hmm maybe the best solution to the problem is to kill and capture them on there land before they kill us on our land. No one dealt with the problem before Bush, and you can't argue that.

Terrorism can't "win" the same way the idea of a "war against terrorism" or a "war against drugs" is rediculous.

Terrorism can succeed or fail in taking lives. We can succeed or fail in stopping individual attacks. We cannot stop the process of terrorism by waging war against major groups that make use of it. We can, however, reduce people's willingness to use it by dealing with other problems such as poverty and lack of education.

The "war against terrorism" can't be won because waging war doesn't effect the process of terrorism. Terrorism can, however, be stopped, and in this regard the "war on terrorism" can be "won". I don't agree with the war in Iraq as a war against terrorists. I do, however, agree with the war in Iraq from the position that removing a genocidal dictator could potentialy improve the standards of living in the area to the point that terrorism will no longer be seen as an effective or desirable means of communicating one's ideals.

Violence against terrorists by itself isn't going to stop anything but it is necessary to stop terrorism.

That is my point, I'm saying that terrorists have not won. And have we won? No. But have we made progress, for sure.

It is just ignorant to say that the terrorists have won.

would someone please end this its over move on

Don't take it personal , but either you haven't thoroughly read my post , or you haven't fully understood my points ... Plz read it again.

Originally Posted by: DreamRyche2112 Obviously Terrorist's have gotten the best of you, and manipulated you into thinking that. They have stripped you of your faith in America. The only thing terrorists have won over, is the minds of people like you. [/QUOTE]
First off , I'm really losing my faith and respect to the so called american values , but you should thank your government for that (I can explain if you can't comprehend why) , not the terrorists.
If you have blind faith in your country , I can never blame you for that , but remember this "blind faith = closing your mind".
[QUOTE=DreamRyche2112] Hmm maybe the best solution to the problem is to kill and capture them on there land before they kill us on our land.

Well , I hope it's that easy , but talk is cheap ... How can you know all the terrorists and what they are up to before doing it, to kill or capture all of them ?
You have to undestand that everybody is and will always be vulnerable to terrorism as long as the reason for terrorism exists, and if you can stop them from hijacking planes you can't gaurantee optimum security everywhere else ... Put in mind that it doesn't take more than a small bomb (that could be home made) and a stupid mind to go and blow a bunch of innocent people.
From my humble experience , we've had terrorism problems in my country over 10 years ago and it wasn't solved that way ... Through media , that was the real war to win (and we did win) , and most of those who were about to become terrorists found out how damn wrong was the disasterous actions they were going to do.

Terrorism is a problem of ignorance , it must be dealt with that way.

Originally Posted by: DreamRyche2112It is just ignorant to say that the terrorists have won.

I can't understand how can't you see that killing someone who was already going to kill himself among others can't be considered a victorty ?!
May be a small win , that you prevented few deaths and injuries , but from a broader perspective , another terrorist would come and finish the job ... So , terrorism as a whole is still not defeated, and it could never be defeated this way.

Keep in mind that any small terrorist action that causes any minor deaths/injuries/damage , can be considered a win (for the terrorists) ... i.e. We can say the terrorists has won.
Therefore , when I say "terrorists will always win" , refering to any successfull operation they would carry out , it's a fact not ignorance.
Got it, or need I say more ?

Originally Posted by: 1791would someone please end this its over move on

Sure thing, boss!

Oh, wait, oops... I thought you were Jon!

Originally Posted by: DreamRyche2112But have we made progress, for sure.

Actually, due to America's foreign policies in the past 3 years the US has probably created more new potential terrorists than they have killed or captured.

If that is what the US was aiming at, then yes, they have made progress.

I think this might be interesting to know :

"Meanwhile, the U.S. military was investigating videotaped pool pictures taken Saturday by NBC that showed a U.S. Marine shooting dead a wounded prisoner in a mosque in Fallujah. The footage was taken during an operation of the Marines 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment.


On the video, a Marine can be heard shouting obscenities in the background, yelling that one of the men against the wall in the mosque was only pretending to be dead. It then briefly shows a Marine raising his weapon toward one of the inert prisoners. The video is then blacked out, but the report of the gunfire can be heard."


Click here for the source , yahoo news.

Originally Posted by: 1791would someone please end this its over move on

Why are you reading it? You move on.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburnHAHAHAHA!!...and this is coming from the omniscient ponyone :rolleyes:
what a joke! your the worst on this forum with accepting others opinion

Easy there... let's not get too feisty here. Not that PonyOne can't handle a little heat, but we don't want to set a bad example for the young folk.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburn Sly...awwww...that brought a tear to my eye..I guess you have forgotten about the many beheadings and using civilians as shields all the other goodies

Well , nobody asked them to go there anyway , and they never had to ..... It doesn't mean that I don't feel terribly sorry for any civilian death (from any nation) unlike you , since you're showing sarcasm on the death of an innocent Iraqi civilian.

It also seems that you have forgotten the abo ghoreib prison scandal , todays marine shooting dead a wounded inert civilian , bombing small villages (by mistake of course :rolleyes: ) etc etc ... You really ain't much better than the terrorists . ;)
Bottom line , you have more power , f16's ,stealth , b52's and well trained troops , they use barbarian methods ..... You kill terrorists and civilians , they kill your troops and civilians , therefore both are equally disgusting and evil .... You only look better cuz you have the media and facilities in your pockets .

Remember that the occupier always called the resistance in their colonies terrorism ,but still it never made the occupier less evil.


Plz don't take it personal , and think of what I say thoroughly ... And prove me wrong if you can.

Originally Posted by: PonyOnenot that i want to turn this into a flamefest, but... the only reason that you're using "omniscient" is because either Jolly or Christoph (I think it was Jolly) used it in the other thread. You are completely useless as far as conversations go because everything you post is just what one of them has posted, recut with some ad-libbed snottiness. every argument you put up i shot down, so, you just waited till one of them put something up and then went "huh yeah read what Christoph said."

Yeah, that was me, sorry about opening THAT gateway, man. :(

3rd degree: PonyOne's pretty accurate here, man. The reason he doesn't accept your opinions is because he has evidence that leads him to a conclusion of his own, whereas you kind of have...what's the phrase I'm looking for...the ability to echo. I appreciate the back and forth that you help keep both back AND forth Pony, so I apologize for offending you in the other post. I thought it was perhaps a hidden motive, but now I see that it was not. My mistake. Carry on!

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonThe reason he doesn't accept your opinions is because he has evidence that leads him to a conclusion of his own...

It's always amazing how two people can look at the same "evidence" and come out with two completely different points of view. As for PonyOne's posting pictures of his family, I can definitely empathize with him. If my dad was over there, I'd want him to come back as soon as possible. I wouldn't want him to die for the so-called "freedom" of the Iraqi people. If they wanted freedom so much they would have risen up against Saddam a long time ago. A free society depends on people being able to govern themselves, and I seriously doubt that a people who are so willing to strap on bombs and use women and children as human shields will be able to govern much of anything. The only place for people like that is in a zoo. I have to say that the longer this goes on the more it seems like our soldiers are dying for nothing. I for one would not put my life on the line for those crapheads and their so-called liberation, or whatever excuse people want to come up with for the war.

And before PonyOne comes swooping in with his "but you're supporting the guy who started the war" line, let me say that I voted for Bush solely on his domestic policy of lower taxes, pro-business, gun rights, etc, not for his foreign policy. Voting solely on the basis of the war, I probably would have voted for Nader....LOL. But like I said before, Bush was the lesser of two evils.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburnIm gonna call it quits in this arguement..the fact is that we are over there and it would be crazy to pull out now

What's crazy was going over there in the first place. I didn't read this whole thread, just bits and peices so if I'm rehashing material, I'm sorry.

There are people in America that think we should be the world's police force and defend everyone at all costs. The sad part of it is, is we have many more problems now than we have had in years. (see: healthcare, social security, rising drug costs, frivolous lawsuits, outsourcing)

Doesn't anyone think it's just a bit ironic that after we "captured" the "threat" known as Saddam Hussein that he gets a dental check-up and physical, when millions of American citizens can't even afford this same luxury and are without healthcare?

Isn't it ironic that from the 9/11 attacks more than half of the men responsible were from Saudi Arabia and not Iraq?

Just because our poor government pushes their propaganda down our throats like we can't think for ourselves.

Case in point: Anthrax. Supposedly terrorists were going to use this to attack us. Don't forget the "Terror Alert" system. "Today is a red day, be careful, don't lick envelopes, they may be laced with anthrax."They instilled a fear into the American people to make them think that we we werere going to be attacked again. Now, after that, let's go after someone we can all identify with and hate, Saddam Hussein. (Oh, and by the way, let's grab the oil while we're there.)

Saddam Hussein is an insane man, yes, but there are insane dictators all over the world that we don't go bothering (See: North Korea, don't get me started there either). Sure, they aren't sitting on black gold, but still.

The only thing that I can explain for this war is a struggling economy. It's a proven fact, if the economy is struggling, a war will bring it out.

All the facts about how nice Iraq is now, good, but answer this, "Why is it any of our responsibility?" If you can answer that question to me, I would be truly satisfied.

Wow, my brain hurts from reading through this thread. All I know is that Bush won (sadly in my opinion(yay for all you republicans), but i'm not going to set myself on fire in front of the white house because of it.
Oh by the way, who ever said we didn't live in a democracy was kind of wrong. We don't live in a direct democracy, but our government is a representative democracy. Just thought i'd throw that out there for kicks and giggles.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburnYes ur right, they did say that and I too am saying it because its true

Ohhh...so now you've shot down "every "argument ive put.. How about all the things I put up about the good things that have happened in Iraq in the earlier arguments such as :

Here's a couple of the FACTS you made, I'd like you to know alittle more about.

*Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.

400,000 out of 10 million??? That's hardly a dent, a good cause but nothing to brag about. Just sounds nice in the media.

* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.

1,500 schools, hmm. That number is alittle high. I believe there are only 5 colleges in iraq. Most of Iraq is desert, marshland, and small hut like villages. In urban areas, the ratio of schools to squares miles would rival that of most modernized countries, like the United States. Considering the size of the country is only alittle bigger than the size of two Idaho's. Not very Big. But that is also nice to know when you consider that many schools in the U.S. have been closed due to lack of funding. WTF about the american people?

Iraq's poor education is directly due to the U.S. embargo on Iraq after the first Gulf war. Before that war Iraq spent 5% of education, which is way higher than most countries, which is an average 3.8%. Drop-out also increased about 40,000 after the gulf war. You want to blame saddam?

* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in June.

Hmm. Before the embargo after the first Gulf War, Iraq was one of the leading oil traders in the world. Also ask where did this OIL go??? Here's the percentage if you don't know.
US 45.4%, Taiwan 8.8%, Canada 8.1%, Jordan 7.8%, Italy 7.4%, Morocco 4.9%, Brazil 4%

Oh my god, what's this look like. AH, The Coalition!!!!!!

Also note oil production before the war was 2.8 million bbl/day. After? 2.2 million bbl/day.

Before I end this one, one more thing. We get 45.4 of there exports, I wonder what we give in return. How bout a staggering 7.4%. Seems fair to me.

* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.

Councils yes, elections no. The first elections in Iraq are not scheduled until january 2005. Even that is questionable since they don't want to hold them til they lower the insurgent numbers, and finish negoiated the policy with those that had power before the war. Even my dreams aren't that sweet.

* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.

Where are you getting these numbers? 240,000 men are patrolling Iraq, that's not even 1% of the population. Considering the "hotbed" Iraq is right now, that number is a joke. Reality check, these "police stations" are getting blown up left and right all across the country. Hardly "securing" the country.

* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.

Yes but there were about 675,000 in use before the war.

* An interim constitution has been signed.

That doesn't mean crap. There hasn't even been an election. No democracy, no constitution. The only thing they have is a rough draft, which is basically written up and only supported by those we have put there, not the Iraqi people as a majority.

Don't get me wrong we have done alot of good over there, but these great looking facts seem real small when you look at the whole picture. That's the problem today is people see only what there told to see. If you get all the facts you too will see that.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburn...*Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in June.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed...

OK.
(Notice the OK is meant to show that I'm responding with a level head, I'm listening to you. You can almost see me nod, right? Right).
Now,
Is the above the reason Bush and co. gave as the reason for starting the war?
We all the answer to that, we've been through it, no repetiton needed.
You could say that it was a side effect, and a nice one at that, but this is a war, not a godamn World Bank donation.
What you are refering to here is by and large alleviation of poverty/imrpovement of living standards. I didn't know, but I guess wars are very effective at achieving these kinds of ends.

Originally Posted by: 3rd_degreeburn Simply stated no, I posted those things to show the good that has came out of the war..not for some excuse to go to war.

Noticing...those may not seem like great achievements to you or dont live up to what you would call "good" but to the ppl over there its better than it used to be.

I'll pass over the war reasons thing that kingdavid started , although you americans should be ashamed of having a liar president who lied to you and the whole world.

Simple question : If the people over there in Iraq are happier , richer , more secure , stable and free as you say ... Why the crap are they resisting american occupation ?

One thing you should learn , the word "foriegn occupation" might sound easy to you , but in arab countries it's the most evil sounding word, a lot more evil than terrorism !
Thanx to centuries of western colonialism since the roman empire , and through out history, and your still doing it today.

Originally Posted by: PonyOne i am. believe me, i am. [/QUOTE]
I know you are, it's obvious ... And so is nearly 50% of the americans , but unfortunately it wasn't enough to change .

Originally Posted by: PonyOne the only way Saddam maintained law and order was via fear and and the fact that he came from that country, he knew that country, and the people who patrolled it for him came from that country and knew it... Bush just came in from the outside, not knowing the country, with a non-native force and expects to have the nation love him after having obliterated all of its infrastructure?

Exaclty , they hated Saddam for being a dictator , but still , he's one of them ... Having a national dictator is still better than remembering years of civilised modern British occupation.
Even when he fought against ethnic groups , it never appeared as racism or discremenation (and it never really was) , cuz his government cabinet included every major ethnic group in Iraq (shi'a muslims , christians , and of course sunni muslims) .
I'm not defending him of course.

[QUOTE=PonyOne] the iraqi populace was fairly happy about us coming in in 1991, and many saw us as liberators... and then Bush I pulled out... come on, one of the things you learn in high school as a guy is that pulling out doesn't save your ass at all, okay, we pull out and all those people who were cheering us or happy were retaken by Saddam and many were tortured or executed... now, we come back a decade later and of course people are gonig to be suspicious. but even still earlier on we had a chance, and Bush didn't take it. now we're trying, and it's too late. they hate us. and it has nothing to do with them being "terrorists."

Actually in '91 , people weren't really happy about the US invading their nation , but at least they were ready to give up to the consequences of their own fault of invading Kuwait ... Yes , it wouldn't have been any close to the mess that it is right now.