Chord Question

Hey, everyone.

During practice today I chose to do some basic chord-changing exercises, and in the middle of my practie-session, I noticed that the B Major Chord is basically the A Major Cord moved two frets down the neck. And the, I started to wonder about something... Can you theoretically play any Major Chord by just moving another Major Chord around on the neck? For example, can you take the G Major Chord Shape
/--3--
/--3--
/--0--
/--0--
/--2--
/--3--

and move it two frets down the neck for an A Major Chord? Or move it up the neck for an F Major?

Someone, please clarify this for me.

Originally Posted by: KasperowFor example, can you take the G Major Chord Shape
and move it two frets down the neck for an A Major Chord? Or move it up the neck for an F Major?

Someone, please clarify this for me.

Hi Kasperow. Firstly, I think you're getting your terminology slightly wrong. When we say "down the neck" in guitar-terms, we mean moving towards the headstock of the guitar, and "up the neck" to mean moving towards the pickups & bridge. This is because even though we are physically just moving side to side, we are going down in tone (moving towards lower tones on the guitar) when we move our fretting hand towards the headstock, and up in tones when we're moving towards the pickup and bridge.

Ok, now that's sorted out, what you're talking about is an "open" chord. "Open" chords are called "open" because they incorporate open strings. They are not considered "movable" as you're suggesting, because if you move your hand higher or lower on the fretboard, you're changing the notes that are fretted while leaving the open strings the same. Nothing says that you can't do this, but you're not going to have a major chord with the new position.

For instance, G Major is made up of the notes, G, B, and D. If you now want A Major, you need the notes A, C# (C sharp), and E. Using the G Major shape in your example, notice how even though there six notes, one for each string, its actually just G, B, D, G, D, E starting from your low E string going to the high E string. Moving the shape to the fifth fret, you'll have A, C#, D (the open D string), G (the open G string) E, and A. The open strings now clash with the fretted notes trying to make the A Major chord, so this "open" chord for G Major works just in the one position for G Major.

Barre chords are considered "movable" chord shapes because they do allow you to move the shape up and down the fret board and create the same chord in a different key. Guitarist also use "capos" clamped on to the neck of the guitar, effectively raising the entire pitch of the instrument. So if you clamped a capo at the 2nd fret, using your example, the open strings D and G would now be raised to E and A respectively, so your "open" G chord played at the 5th fret would actually make A Major.

Its still fun though to experiment with open shapes any where on the fretboard. Most times, the chord will sound terrible, but you can sometimes come up with neat sounds if you omit a few strings. Other times, you get lucky... for example, play a normal C Major chord, then slide it two frets up so the root note is now D on the 5th fret, 5th string (A string). Play only the top five strings (leave out the open low E) and you have a nice, airy sounding D chord!

Kasperow

I think Bar chords and Open chords may be mixing you up. Let’s say you are making an F major chord. On the first fret your 1st finger covers all the strings, your 2nd finger G string 2nd fret or the note A. 3rd finger A string 3rd fret or the C note, and last the pinky D string 3rd fret or the F note.

Now keep your fingers in that shape or pattern and slide them up 2 frets. You are now making the G major chord. Still not moving the shape, move up two more frets and you are making an A chord two more B, one more C.

Open chords do not work that way. Let’s say you are making an open D chord. Keep the shape and slide up 2 frets, it still sounds good, but it’s not an E chord. Make an open G, now slide it up 2 frets, It does not make another open major chord and it kind of sounds bad.

Learning the notes on the neck as you are learning other things now will advance you later by more than you may realize at this point.

Thanks for the explanations. I should probably go rewatch Christopher Schlegels videos on Chord Theory in the Guitar Fundamentals Course.

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardHi Kasperow. Firstly, I think you're getting your terminology slightly wrong. When we say "down the neck" in guitar-terms, we mean moving towards the headstock of the guitar, and "up the neck" to mean moving towards the pickups & bridge. This is because even though we are physically just moving side to side, we are going down in tone (moving towards lower tones on the guitar) when we move our fretting hand towards the headstock, and up in tones when we're moving towards the pickup and bridge.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. I got them confused. My bad. The important thing is that you understood what I meant :)

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardOk, now that's sorted out, what you're talking about is an "open" chord. "Open" chords are called "open" because they incorporate open strings. They are not considered "movable" as you're suggesting, because if you move your hand higher or lower on the fretboard, you're changing the notes that are fretted while leaving the open strings the same. Nothing says that you can't do this, but you're not going to have a major chord with the new position. For instance, G Major is made up of the notes, G, B, and D. If you now want A Major, you need the notes A, C# (C sharp), and E. Using the G Major shape in your example, notice how even though there six notes, one for each string, its actually just G, B, D, G, D, E starting from your low E string going to the high E string. Moving the shape to the fifth fret, you'll have A, C#, D (the open D string), G (the open G string) E, and A. The open strings now clash with the fretted notes trying to make the A Major chord, so this "open" chord for G Major works just in the one position for G Major.

Barre chords are considered "movable" chord shapes because they do allow you to move the shape up and down the fret board and create the same chord in a different key. Guitarist also use "capos" clamped on to the neck of the guitar, effectively raising the entire pitch of the instrument. So if you clamped a capo at the 2nd fret, using your example, the open strings D and G would now be raised to E and A respectively, so your "open" G chord played at the 5th fret would actually make A Major.

Its still fun though to experiment with open shapes any where on the fretboard. Most times, the chord will sound terrible, but you can sometimes come up with neat sounds if you omit a few strings. Other times, you get lucky... for example, play a normal C Major chord, then slide it two frets up so the root note is now D on the 5th fret, 5th string (A string). Play only the top five strings (leave out the open low E) and you have a nice, airy sounding D chord!

Okay, I think I've got it now.

[QUOTE=haghj500]Kasperow

I think Bar chords and Open chords may be mixing you up. Let’s say you are making an F major chord. On the first fret your 1st finger covers all the strings, your 2nd finger G string 2nd fret or the note A. 3rd finger A string 3rd fret or the C note, and last the pinky D string 3rd fret or the F note.

Now keep your fingers in that shape or pattern and slide them up 2 frets. You are now making the G major chord. Still not moving the shape, move up two more frets and you are making an A chord two more B, one more C.

Open chords do not work that way. Let’s say you are making an open D chord. Keep the shape and slide up 2 frets, it still sounds good, but it’s not an E chord. Make an open G, now slide it up 2 frets, It does not make another open major chord and it kind of sounds bad.

Learning the notes on the neck as you are learning other things now will advance you later by more than you may realize at this point.

So by this explanation, the F Major is the only Major Chord that works this way? I just thought it also worked to move the A Major towards the bridge to get a B Major, and moving that chord further up the neck to get a C, D or E, but it would appear that I was wrong in that regard...

Originally Posted by: KasperowSo by this explanation, the F Major is the only Major Chord that works this way? I just thought it also worked to move the A Major towards the bridge to get a B Major, and moving that chord further up the neck to get a C, D or E, but it would appear that I was wrong in that regard...

I think you have it, but just to be clear...

You can move the A toward the bridge and get a B , but you have to also fret the first string (high E) on the second fret and don't strum the E or A strings. What you've done is made a barre chord without creating the barre completely across the neck.

It will make more sense once you get to barre chords. If you look at the chord shape of an F, it is partly the barre chord for an F on the first fret. Same thing for a B (except it's on the second fret). The F is based off barring the open E chord shape and the B is based off barring an open A chord shape.

Originally Posted by: KasperowCan you theoretically play any Major Chord by just moving another Major Chord around on the neck?

In short, yes. That is a great observation. But as others have already mentioned, there are complications!

The primary complication is that you will have to fret notes that are otherwise open string notes. This will usually involve new fingerings as well.

But, even with all these caveats, the basic idea is a good one that works. The best way to look at it as a pattern of chord tones that you can move up & down the neck.

For example, the open G major chord is:

||---|---|-1-|---|---|
3 ||---|---|---|---|---|
1 ||---|---|---|---|---|
5 ||---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|

If we use scale degrees 1, 3 & 5 (the chord tones), then we can visualize a pattern that works everywhere. We only need to know which musical letter the 1 (the root note) lands on in order to name the chord.

So, we can move the pattern up two frets (and fret the open strings!) to get an A major chord, because the 1 (the root note) is on the note A.

||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-5-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|

Or up two more frets to get a B major chord.

||---|---|---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|

The pattern is like an algebraic equation, with the root note as the variable.

/---|---|---|---|-1-|---/
/---|-3-|---|---|---|---/
/---|-1-|---|---|---|---/
/---|-5-|---|---|---|---/
/---|---|---|-3-|---|---/
/---|---|---|---|-1-|---/

And more! All chord shapes are like this. In fact, this is part of what the CAGED system is about. I cover this topic from a few different angles in several tutorials. My approach is to view all chords in their basic unit, the triad. So, my triad & inversions tutorials can provide a great deal of insight to this whole topic.

www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=148
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=824

www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=730
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=731
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=733
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=734

In fact, if you look carefully at the fretboard graphic at the bottom of this lesson page, you can see every single open chord all integrated across the fretboard as chord tones. :)

http://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=9213&s_id=148

Finally, big thanks to Slipin Lizard, haghj500 & maggior for their excellent, helpful replies. You guys are making the instructor's job easier in the forum! :)

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelIn fact, this is part of what the CAGED system is about. I cover this topic from a few different angles in several tutorials.[/QUOTE]

I'll have to check that out - I'm glad to hear CAGED is covered here. I looked on the internet for other major scale patterns and found an explanation of this. It's very clever! As a visual learner, it makes a lot of sense to me.

[QUOTE=CSchlegel]
Finally, big thanks to Slipin Lizard, haghj500 & maggior for their excellent, helpful replies. You guys are making the instructor's job easier in the forum! :)

Glad to hear my input helps. I still have a lot to learn, but it's fun to help out those that I can.

Thanks for the props, Christopher, glad to help when I can! By the way, when you post those fretboard diagrams, do you have to type out all the dashes etc every time, or there a short cut for creating them?

Originally Posted by: maggiorI'll have to check that out - I'm glad to hear CAGED is covered here.

Oops! I don't cover CAGED explicitly. I'm sorry that my post was misleading. I meant that as two separate statements.

1. Visualizing open chord shapes moved up the neck is essentially what CAGED is about.

2. I cover visualizing movable chord shapes by a different means; using triads & inversions.

And, yes, your input helps. :)

You are welcome! You deserve it.

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardBy the way, when you post those fretboard diagrams, do you have to type out all the dashes etc every time, or there a short cut for creating them?

Sometimes I just copy-paste it from a previous post. Especially if I've done one recently I can grab quickly.

Other times I copy it from a .txt doc. I've attached it to this post. Feel free to use it!

"So by this explanation, the F Major is the only Major Chord that works this way? I just thought it also worked to move the A Major towards the bridge to get a B Major, and moving that chord further up the neck to get a C, D or E, but it would appear that I was wrong in that regard..."

No, there is two major bar chord shapes. "main shapes"
1. Is the F major shape we already covered.
2. Lets start with the B chord. Your first finger in the 2nd fret covers A/D/G/B/E strings. Finger #3 4th fret covers D/G/B/E, that makes a B chord.

By moving that shape so your first finger is in the 3rd fret you make a C major chord, move the shape to the 5th fret, thats D major and so on up/down the neck.

Originally Posted by: CSchlegel

Finally, big thanks to Slipin Lizard, haghj500 & maggior for their excellent, helpful replies. You guys are making the instructor's job easier in the forum! :)

Thank you, Christopher

You sir amaze me by how detailed your answers are and the time you must invest to answer some of them.

Thanks for the .txt file Christopher! I'll put it to good use starting now... here's that open D chord that's fretted just like a C Major, but moved up two frets:


E ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
B ||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
G ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
D ||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|
A ||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|
x ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|


Not sure of the name, but it sounds nice...

You are welcome!

Originally Posted by: haghj500... how detailed your answers are and the time you must invest to answer some of them.

Thanks for noticing! I enjoy every minute of it. So, that helps. :)

You are welcome for the file. It's a handy tool!

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardI'll put it to good use starting now... here's that open D chord that's fretted just like a C Major, but moved up two frets:


E ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
B ||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
G ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
D ||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|
A ||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|
x ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|


Not sure of the name, but it sounds nice...

Does sound good! If you are leaving the G & E strings open, then you've got this collection of notes.

D, F#, G, D, E

Apply scale degrees to name the chord tones & the label the chord.

D - root
F# - major 3rd
G - 4th
E - 9th (or just 2nd an octave higher).

So, you've got a D add 4th add 9th. It can't be a "sus" or suspended chord, because the major 3rd is present. So, the 4th & 9th are added instead of suspended.

That chord sounds good! The open strings add a lot of brightness to it. I've use that one on a lot of different things myself. :)

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelYou are welcome for the file. It's a handy tool!

Does sound good! If you are leaving the G & E strings open, then you've got this collection of notes.

D, F#, G, D, E

Apply scale degrees to name the chord tones & the label the chord.

D - root
F# - major 3rd
G - 4th
E - 9th (or just 2nd an octave higher).

So, you've got a D add 4th add 9th. It can't be a "sus" or suspended chord, because the major 3rd is present. So, the 4th & 9th are added instead of suspended.

That chord sounds good! The open strings add a lot of brightness to it. I've use that one on a lot of different things myself. :)

So going by that logic, it's possible to combine any notes and get different chords based on the notes combined? And on that note, are there any notes that should never be combined?

I know it may look like I'm asking a lot of stupid questions, but I think it's better to ask stupid questions and get answers than to keep them to myself and never move on because the questions bother me :)

Anyways, thanks for the kind explanations so far :)

Originally Posted by: KasperowSo going by that logic, it's possible to combine any notes and get different chords based on the notes combined?[/quote]
Yes. It's simply a matter of identifying the intervals between the notes that are played together.

It can get more complex, too! For example, you could name that above chord by reference to any of the notes as the root. Or even a non-chord tone as the root.

For example, this collection of notes together could also be viewed with the G as the root note. Then, it is a matter of identifying the intervals from G to the other notes.

G - root
D - 5th
E - major 6th
F# - major 7th

So, that would be a G (no 3rd) maj 7th add 6th. But, of course, in inversion because the D is the lowest note. So, more precisely:

G (no 3rd) maj 7th add 6th/D

Or you could even name it with reference to a note not present as the root note.

A - non present root
D - 4th
E - 5th
F# - major 6th
G - minor 7th

A (no 3rd) min 7th sus 4th add 6th (no root)

But that starts to get inefficient. :) And so, conceptual efficiency becomes a principle to use. What is the most efficient name for the chord? What gets the point across quickly, clarifying & not confusing the issue of how that group of notes relate to each other?

In this case, it would be the D as root note.

Other considerations are: how does the chord function? For example, what chord comes before it? After it? Do the notes in the chords move from chord to chord in a certain pattern that makes the naming more efficient one way or the other?

Originally Posted by: KasperowAnd on that note, are there any notes that should never be combined?

Yes: ones that you do NOT like the sound of. :)

You can combine any group of notes. Music theory can describe any group of notes you put together. That is one of the primary purposes of music theory: to help you mentally organize & categorize musical sounds & labels. This means you can more quickly recall which sounds you like, which ones you don't & get right to expressing your self confidently with sounds because you know what you are doing. You understand how the notes relate to each other. You know, before you start creating what the result of any given group of notes, or chords will be.
[QUOTE=Kasperow]
I know it may look like I'm asking a lot of stupid questions, but I think it's better to ask stupid questions and get answers than to keep them to myself and never move on because the questions bother me :)

Anyways, thanks for the kind explanations so far :)

Ask anything you want about music! No such thing as an honest question being stupid. Glad you are enjoying this thread. I am, too. :)

I'm going to re-run the Guitar Fundamentals II Course, because it seems like there's something I may have skipped by accident or just plain forgotten. In either case, it can't hurt to go through it again :)

However, I'd like to know something before I throw myself over the GF2 Course again: Is there an easy, fun way to learn scales and build speed? And by that, I don't mean just playing through the scale up and down hundreds of times with a metronome to keep up with. While that may be the easy way, it doesn't exactly sound like the most entertaining way to learn them. So is there another way to learn the scales?

Please help me. I'm really eager to learn how to play some real Rock, but my sloppy fingers and lack of knowledge are standing in the way, at the moment.

Originally Posted by: KasperowI'm going to re-run the Guitar Fundamentals II Course, because it seems like there's something I may have skipped by accident or just plain forgotten. In either case, it can't hurt to go through it again :)
[/quote]
Always a good idea to review.

You started this thread asking if chord shapes where moveable. And in essence, you are right. GF2 Chapter 3 covers a lot of chord theory. And Chapter 8 covers barre chords, which means it is all about movable chord shapes! So, you might get a lot out of just review those two chapters.

Originally Posted by: Kasperow
However, I'd like to know something before I throw myself over the GF2 Course again: Is there an easy, fun way to learn scales and build speed? And by that, I don't mean just playing through the scale up and down hundreds of times with a metronome to keep up with.

No. :)

Well, yes, but they all amount to the same thing: repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, etc.

And a lot of this depends upon what kind of rock playing, songs, styles, skill level you are talking about. The vast majority of rock & blues players (and performing artists) never played scales systemically with a metronome. They just learn a lick from a song or friend or tab book, then play it 10,000 times a day until it's second nature. Then, they learn another lick & do it 10,000 times. Rinse & repeat.

Since all licks are essentially bits of scales ready made to drop in a song, they can build a vocabulary of things to "say", without ever drilling scales with a metronome.

This is how EVH, SRV, Hendrix, Page, Clapton, etc. built their chops.

The other thing all these guys did, and many rock & blues players is to play along with a drummer or other musicians all the time. For them, this is what took the place of having to drill with a metronome.

But there is simply no getting around logging hours & days & weeks & years on the machine, regardless of how you approach it.
[QUOTE=Kasperow]I'm really eager to learn how to play some real Rock, but my sloppy fingers and lack of knowledge are standing in the way, at the moment.

What, precisely, is your current skill level?

What songs or licks or riffs or things can you play? What can't you play yet that you are working on?

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelWhat, precisely, is your current skill level?

What songs or licks or riffs or things can you play? What can't you play yet that you are working on?

Well, I have a grasp of how various things work, though I can only identify the notes of the C Major Scale on the fretboard and by moving the notes up or down, I can find the other Major Scales (I'll have to find a way to memorize the formula, so I can play the other scales more easily...). My biggest problem right now is actually strength, speed and dexterity in both hands (and precision for the right hand).

As of right now, I can almost fluently play the main riff from Aerosmith's Dream On (the simple riff that plays during the beginning of the intro and during the verses) but I can't play the end part of the intro so it sounds right, as well as the simple chord progressions in the Guitar Fundamentals course and House Of The Rising Son as taught in the GF2 course (a bit slow on the arpeggio-track, though) and a somewhat slow-paced pop-song called Unbreakable, though that also halts a bit at the end, due to the strange chord-shapes used.

I'm mainly trying to learn to play those three songs for now. I don't feel like I need too many songs to work on, at least in the beginning.