Loads of questions: Mode visualisation/switching

Ok I've just started trying to improvise over Jazz standards. I tried over a 2-5-1 in C and was surprised at how nice I started sounding after a few minutes of it, which is a good sign. I then moved on to autumn leaves, which went terribly.

I know Autumn Leaves is diatonic, so I could have just played one scale and stressed the root of each chord plus a few other tones - in fact this is something I'm good at already which is why the 2-5-1 improv worked. However, I wanted to visualise each chord as its own scale instead of coming from a parent scale, so that I would be prepared for more advanced non-diatonic progressions (I hope that makes sense). This proved really hard because I couldn't switch fluidly.

So:
1. Should I even be trying to visualise a diatonic progression without reference to the parent major scale or is this complexity redundant? If I should be visualising one big major scale and singling out appropriate tones, how do i handle modulations or out of key chords/notes when they crop up?

2. Does anyone have a list of good progressions to improvising over, from easy to hard -they can be things on this site or just songs or something that you found helpful to practice improvising over. At the moment I think I need to be pointed to a progression that is complex, pref. not diatonic, but which stays on each chord for a long time. It is the quick changing that seems common in jazz which makes it so hard to keep up with melodically.

3. What are the steps to being able to switch between modes fluidly? I have vague ideas of what is important - like fretboard knowledge and scale pattern knowledge, but I'm not sure what order I should approach things in and have hit a rut. Should I be learning licks for each mode - which I have shied away from, or is it possible to just learn the patterns and make your licks as you go?

Thanks!

Originally Posted by: RiskyNZOk I've just started trying to improvise over Jazz standards.[/quote]
Good deal! First, I'd encourage you to look at my Intro to Jazz Guitar (if you haven't already studied it):

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=519

Originally Posted by: RiskyNZI know Autumn Leaves is diatonic, so I could have just played one scale and stressed the root of each chord plus a few other tones - in fact this is something I'm good at already which is why the 2-5-1 improv worked.
[/quote]
Autumn Leaves was originally written in E minor. So, that's the version I'll refer to as I reply. If you are working in a different key, please let me know so I can adjust my replies as necessary.

Regardless of which key you are in, it is important to notice that the tune does modulate from minor to relative major. Look for the accidentals at the endings of the 1st phrase. Also, there is an interesting descending chromatic chord sequence near the end of the form. The melody holds one note throughout it, so it doesn't factor in right away. But it is a great place to work out some neat solo ideas.

Now to your questions!

Originally Posted by: RiskyNZ1. Should I even be trying to visualise a diatonic progression without reference to the parent major scale or is this complexity redundant?[/quote]
The first thing you should do is learn the melody. Learn to play it, learn to hum it, hear it in your mind. The melody is the starting point.

You should start by thinking of this tune as in one key (with slight melodic & harmonic minor modulations) or as you say from one parent scale. It is a sort of redundancy because a diatonic progression that stays (mostly) in one key has only one primary scale (with slight modulations).
[QUOTE=RiskyNZ]If I should be visualising one big major scale and singling out appropriate tones, how do i handle modulations or out of key chords/notes when they crop up?

Combine 2 essential components: The melody & the fact that this song & it's melody use the key/scale of E minor. When the melody contains the modulations raising the 6th & 7th degree then alter your soloing at that point. There are other times in which the B7(b9) to E minor chord happens (V-i progression) but the melody doesn't contains them. You can still use the altered scale notes in these places.
[QUOTE=RiskyNZ]2. Does anyone have a list of good progressions to improvising over, from easy to hard -they can be things on this site or just songs or something that you found helpful to practice improvising over.

Any Real Book is a good place to start. Or here is a site that you can use:

http://www.jazzstandards.com/compositions/index.htm
http://www.realbook.us/

But please note that these sites don't publicly publish the most important part: the melody. That is a great reason to buy yourself a Real Book.

Traditionally, jazz soloing is about playing the melody, then altering it by ornamentation, then using it as a strating point or platform from which to connect the chords of the tune with approach tones. This means that any given chord might be regarded as a the I or i chord of a miniature "localized" ii-V-I/i progression & how the playing achieves this is his individual style.

For example, overall the song is in E minor. But when any given chord comes along, say the C major 7, you regard that chord as it's own localized I chord. One measure before that chord arrives, you play notes that outline or imply Dmin7-G7b9 as a ii-V approaching the C major 7 as a temporary tonic.

It might sound a little "odd" because the actual chord at that point in G major 7. But this is often precisely why jazz sounds as it does: implication of where you are headed, juxaposed with what is actually happening at the time. :)

To learn this sort of this it helps to learn some licks by Charlie Christian, Django Reinhart, Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, etc. to hear how this is accomplished. I am currently working on a new Joe Pass tutorial on lead licks so that might help you in the near future. For now, have a look at this tutorial on the Circle of Fifths, in particular starting at lesson 7 apply the idea of secondary dominants to popular songs.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=835

You might also get something out of these simpler tutorials that show how to combine major notes in minor pentatonics in a blues context. The idea is to target chord tones, which is great practice for preparing to play jazz changes:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=217
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=232
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=244
[QUOTE=RiskyNZ]
3. What are the steps to being able to switch between modes fluidly? I have vague ideas of what is important - like fretboard knowledge and scale pattern knowledge, but I'm not sure what order I should approach things in and have hit a rut. Should I be learning licks for each mode - which I have shied away from, or is it possible to just learn the patterns and make your licks as you go?

You need to the physical skills of course. But you also need to know ahead of time what each mode sounds like so you can pull that mode out at will on the spot when you desire that sound. But you can only do this once your physical skills are up to par. So you need to develop your playing & listening skills together.

The next step is to develop your own vocabulary. You should have standard licks, or ways of playing through progressions that you like, that you've developed because you like the sound of them. The bigger your set of pre-established licks is, the more you mix, match, alter, interchange & interconnect all these things.

This tutorial on practicing modes can help you with practicing them in a way that compares & contrasts them in order to learn to hear them better as you are gaining physical skills:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=770

Ask more as necessary. Have fun!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelGood deal! First, I'd encourage you to look at my Intro to Jazz Guitar (if you haven't already studied it):

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=519[/QUOTE]
Ah this is the tutorial that put me off Jazz way back! I'd just learned how to do A/E shape barre chords and had no idea why you would want to mess up a perfectly good and already hard enough to play chord by adding some random note to it! Then you wanted me to learn even more awkward shapes - I got out of there and fled back to triads and power chords so quick. Progress feels great.

I've recently been focussed on your extended harmony stuff and am finding those incredibly useful because extension of chord vocab is pretty much my main aim lately - something I neglected a bit while learning all those three note per string mode patterns and shred licks. Those tutorials have really piqued my interest in Jazz, which is something I wasn't really into before I

I wanted to have all of those chords and at least a third on the bottom inversion for each chord type before I move onto the drop 2 stuff, just because I figure it makes sense to know the whole chords before you drop tones and do crazy moving bassline things with them?

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelTraditionally, jazz soloing is about playing the melody, then altering it by ornamentation, then using it as a strating point or platform from which to connect the chords of the tune with approach tones. This means that any given chord might be regarded as a the I or i chord of a miniature "localized" ii-V-I/i progression & how the playing achieves this is his individual style.

As for your breakdown, it helped a lot right away thanks Chris! In particular the bit about learning the original melody - I'd never thought to do that because I thought, "hey I'm trying to play Jazz and its all about improvisation so I should be making up the entire melody straight from my head." I think that was the main thing going wrong.

So I learned the original melody and it gave a road map for where to go musically and also emotionally. I think that was your point - alter the melody a bit maybe with the nearby notes, or chromaticism, or arpeggios, or go off track a lot if you want but whatever you do make sure to return and relate it to something based on the original melody and you should come out with something nice that makes sense with the standard. To do that you have to know the melody in the first place. The only downside is I was forced to use standard notation to learn it. Yuck! :P

The localised ii-V-I thing I tried mainly over the Gmaj7-Cmaj-7 change and it rocked! I started just playing Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 to get the sound into my head, then went mainly D Dorian-G mixo-Cmaj7 and it sounded weird but really nice. It kind of didn't make sense but resolved nicely and made sense in retrospect as a result. Its fun to think of it as like a little modulation out of then back into key - which is exactly the kind of sound I was trying to develop. I'll definitely keep busy exploring this concept for a while and coming up with a few ways of doing it.

Tomorrow's challenge will be doing something interesting over that chromatic sequence you mentioned, and that I've just been playing a B note over so far.

[QUOTE=CSchlegel]The next step is to develop your own vocabulary. You should have standard licks, or ways of playing through progressions that you like, that you've developed because you like the sound of them. The bigger your set of pre-established licks is, the more you mix, match, alter, interchange & interconnect all these things.

This is pretty well where I feel I'm up to, although I've noticed you never really stop learning step 1. I've been eyeing Hanspeter's modal jazz licks and his Django Reinhardt style lesson for a while so I might do a study of those. I already use his rock improv and mixolydian stuff a lot in my blues playing - and I've noticed that, when Jazz flies over your head, the blues scale is like a big safety net - when in doubt play the blues scale and all will be fine!

As for your Joe Pass lead lessons, I'll be watching it as soon as it is up. It'd be great to get some insight into his approach.

Originally Posted by: RiskyNZAh this is the tutorial that put me off Jazz way back! I'd just learned how to do A/E shape barre chords and had no idea why you would want to mess up a perfectly good and already hard enough to play chord by adding some random note to it![/quote]
LOL. Well, congrats on making it through that stuff & making progress until you were ready for the awkward shapes of jazz! :p

I was going to mention my extended harmony chord tutorials as something you should eventually study! Glad you've already found them. A lot of the reason those are so valuable is of course because of how the voices move from chord to chord. That is the essence of jazz harmony!

Remember, those three-note-per-string mode patterns & major & minor pentatonic boxes are still very useful tools & patterns. It's just that jazz ups the ante due to using those tools in a wider conceptual context. Suddenly, all those shredding patterns are not just ends in themselves! They are tools to use in order to link melody notes & harmonic functions moving from chord to chord in a progression.

Originally Posted by: RiskyNZ
I wanted to have all of those chords and at least a third on the bottom inversion for each chord type before I move onto the drop 2 stuff, just because I figure it makes sense to know the whole chords before you drop tones and do crazy moving bassline things with them?
[/quote]
Good point. Keep in mind that the Drop 2 stuff will show you the inversions, too. I have a lot of tutorials on inversions on every possible inversion shape across the fretboard, if you need more help with them.

Originally Posted by: RiskyNZ
As for your breakdown, it helped a lot right away thanks Chris! In particular the bit about learning the original melody - I'd never thought to do that because I thought, "hey I'm trying to play Jazz and its all about improvisation so I should be making up the entire melody straight from my head." I think that was the main thing going wrong.[/quote]
Excellent! Glad my explanation helped. It's a common mistake in regards to jazz. And as you discovered, the original melody gives you a "road map".

And you've got the idea of ornamentation: alter the melody using nearby notes, walk between melody notes with chromatic runs, arpeggios outlining the chord progression in the tune, or with jazzy modulated chord progs that approach the chords in the tune.
[QUOTE=RiskyNZ]
The localised ii-V-I thing I tried mainly over the Gmaj7-Cmaj-7 change and it rocked! I started just playing Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 to get the sound into my head, then went mainly D Dorian-G mixo-Cmaj7 and it sounded weird but really nice. It kind of didn't make sense but resolved nicely and made sense in retrospect as a result. Its fun to think of it as like a little modulation out of then back into key - which is exactly the kind of sound I was trying to develop. I'll definitely keep busy exploring this concept for a while and coming up with a few ways of doing it.

This is great news! :) I am very happy to hear you've completely understood the concept I was trying to get across & that you've started to apply it successfully. :)

The next step is to look for places to include extended chord tones. For example, instead of Dmin7 - G7, try Dmin7b5 - G7b9! Use D locrian & G harmonic or melodic minor because you would be implying the key of C minor!
[QUOTE=RiskyNZ]
Tomorrow's challenge will be doing something interesting over that chromatic sequence you mentioned, and that I've just been playing a B note over so far.

Try pedal point ideas, use the B as a pedal to return to inbetween chord tones from the descending chord sequence.
[QUOTE=RiskyNZ]
This is pretty well where I feel I'm up to, although I've noticed you never really stop learning step 1.

That's a fact. :) A lot of learning jazz (or any style really well) is constantly building & maintaining your own vocabulary; finding new ways of outlining ii-V-I's, embellishing melodic lines with certain types of ornaments.

HP's jazz tutorials are a great source of licks to add to your library. And never discount the blues as a source of licks to build jazz licks. The best jazz players always have a solid grasp of the blues.

The Joe Pass lead lessons are on the way!

My Joe Pass Lead Lines tutorial is now up!

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1205

Hope that gives you more info to work with on learning to solo in jazz style. Have fun! :)

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelThe next step is to look for places to include extended chord tones. For example, instead of Dmin7 - G7, try Dmin7b5 - G7b9! Use D locrian & G harmonic or melodic minor because you would be implying the key of C minor![/QUOTE]I tried this and got it working, but it was confusing theoretically in the context of the progression. Is it best to resolve to CMaj7 or Cm7?

[QUOTE=CSchlegel]My Joe Pass Lead Lines tutorial is now up!

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1205

Hope that gives you more info to work with on learning to solo in jazz style. Have fun!

This is exactly what I needed mindset-wise. Particularly the arpeggios - now I'm going to set about learning arpeggio patterns, which I didn't really know beyond what I learned sweeping, which were basically convenient shapes.

I'm using a metronome and saying 1 3 5 7 1 etc so that I know which part of the chord I'm playing, that way I can alter them when alterred chords come up. Already coming up with some interesting new things, and it is much easier to keep up with the chord progression if I can link things together with arpeggios. Still a long way to go though, especially looking at most jazz tunes where the changes come so quickly!

Originally Posted by: RiskyNZI tried this and got it working, but it was confusing theoretically in the context of the progression. Is it best to resolve to CMaj7 or Cm7?
[/quote]
Great question! :)

First & foremost, learn it both ways to get you hands on it & to learn how each sounds. Next, the best way is the one that matches the intention of the player. There is a case to be made that objectively the best way is the one that most closely follows first the melody and second the harmonic structure of the tune. But once you've established that you are playing some specific series of notes in rhythm and it is in some way integrated with or refers to the tune, then it is often simply a matter of personal choice.

Glad you are finding the arpeggios study useful! That is solid foundation stuff in jazz. And associating the chord tones with the sound of each note in context (and of course the physical motion of playing it) is an excellent idea.

[QUOTE=RiskyNZ]Still a long way to go though, especially looking at most jazz tunes where the changes come so quickly!

I feel the same way. :) Sometimes all you can do is get 3 or 4 notes in on a quick change. You really have to make them count, or else you sound like you're just a noodling rock guy hacking up a jazz tune. :p

This is fun! Let me know how it goes.

There is this book called serious guitar, which breaks everything about the guitar down completely and explains it all perfectly. if you are really serious about guitar, you should get it, that's my advice :) www.seriousguitar.com

It will take you 4 years to get through this one book, but you will be an expert on every mode in existence and every chord for every mode and basically improvisation over any chord. You will learn everything. By the end you will be close friends with your fretboard. Seriously, if you are serious, get serious guitar.

Originally Posted by: MarcusWiesnerYou will learn everything.

That's a huge statement, and the book seems a bit pricey at $48. Personally, I'm not much of a fan of the "all in one" solutions... remember the "Heavy Guitar Bible" that was supposed to be the holy grail of instruction manuals?

I really like MI's stuff, they have a book on modes that is great, really simple, straight-forward explanations, and the author starts the explanation of each mode by describing the sound & mood each scale might evoke.

Learning things like scale patterns and modes is more than just seeing a diagram in a book with a whole bunch of numbers. Breaking down that information into technical fretboard diagrams is the easy part. The hard part is finding a way to get the information into the mind of the student so that it becomes so instinctual that they can actually utilize it when they play. That's what I like about the Fretboard Workbook. Barrett gets you memorizing patterns and scales by speaking them out loud, writing them out on blank fretboard sheets, and only when you've got the scale committed to memory do you attempt to play it on the guitar. It really works well.

Then there's all the video lessons here which are really great because you get to see and hear the instructor play, and you can keep reviewing parts as much as you need to. Really, I don't think there is one source of information that will teach you everything about guitar. Books, video lessons, instructors, jamming with other musicians and just listening to music all combine to create the entire learning experience.

Well, Serious Guitar is not for every guitar student. You have to actually be serious and practice the material on your own, meaning that you have to create vamps so that you can practice the way that he describes.

He doesn't mince words, in fact he is applauded by others for his consise wording. He goes through every tone over every chord's significance, he gives you every chord in tons of inversions and makes you create your own chords. It's basically the price of two lessons, if you think about it, but it covers a lot more than just two lessons could cover.

Diagrams are just a small part of it. And I can describe the greek modes here in less than 15 words while still presenting information many people do not know. Arranged from lightest to darkest: lydian, ionian, mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, phryggian, and locrian. But he covers much more than that, including diminished half-whole and whole-half tone scales and of course melodic and harmonic minor.

I think it is great and I am learning from it because I am highly motivated to practice every day. It doesn't really teach technique, it is just a method book. But like I said, my friend who attended Musician's Institute as a kid said that this is by far his favorite method book. Learning from multiple sources is always good of course, and I learn from many different things constantly, my practices look like three practices hodgepodged together :) Another great book for guitarists who are already somewhat good (and can read notation) is The Advancing Guitarist. So that's my two cents :)

Originally Posted by: MarcusWiesnerWell, Serious Guitar is not for every guitar student. You have to actually be serious...

:rolleyes:

Ease up buddy, there's plenty of "serious" guitarists out there that have never even looked at the book you're describing.