U.S. Reporter Kidnapped in Pakistan Confirmed Dead

:)... Ponyone: hmm.. intresting, that comment goes bothways (i'll get the names of the poeple and the dates), but when a 16 year old palastinain dies, it's "young man", when a 16 year old Isreali dies its "boy"... so maybe the press are being blamed unfairly here...
"So in much of the US, it's more acceptable for a Palestinian to detonate a bomb in a packed pizza shop than it is to shoot a terrorist in the head while he's trying to blow something up"
Eh? who's arming isreal? Who's funding isreal? I dont think the poeple at the top see what isreal is doing as inapproprate... not when they're selling weapons (for amounts in the 9 figures)...
you forget to mention that palastinains are killed on the streets/ in their homes/ at work... I mean, at any moment they could become "collatral damage"... they're bombed to buggery by helicopters, and siged, and have had tanks drive through their streets... and it's made to sound like the palastinains are the one holding isreal to ransom. Let's be fair here, no body starts anyting anymore, it's just constant revenge.. Each terrorist will tell you why they're doing what they are, and you'll hear abouth them having lost a loved one (or several)... So really it's this "collatral damage" (where innocent poeple are killed, and this gives birth to a terrorist) is something that really needs to be payed attention to. So isreal isn't a blame less victim, being harassed by these kids who allegedly throw petrol bomb (i've talked to a lady who was doing humanitarian work there, and i asked here about guns and molotov coktails, and she said she certainly hadn't see any with the kids),I mean there was outrage years ago when guards shot dead kids throwing stones (in northern ireland).. Why is the norm in isreal? oh, and alot of those poeple are blown up, be it by bomb planted by mossad, or helicopter gunships, or tanks etc etc... So what did these poeple do to provoke in those cases? Nothing... The incridible asymetry in the fatalaties shows this is a very unfair war, slaughter would be a more accurate term... Except one side has a powerful media, and can show clips of kids throwing stones, or some palastinain giving the camera the finger... but you dont see the Soldier who killed the 10 year old boy by standing on him, and smashing his head in with his rifle butt. do you see?
the Daniel Peal case is very important.. because it's not just acknoleging the death of someone.. it's a tool. over here they didn't play the clip, as they just want the death to be know about and acknoleged, but over there the clip is played to the carve into poeple hate for these terrorist groups, so come the time for military action it'll be justified in their mind... My point is, that all this has come about due to the death of 3500 americans, but when 428 times that is done to some forign country by the US, it's fine, cos they've been told over and over, that they're in the right... How does this work?

" but should we just kill off 2,000 people to make it equal?"
hold on, I didn't say you should, but that's what will happen if things carry on the way they are... and who said it was ever a just war? it isn't..

Zepplin: my comment wasn't a literal reference to the holoucast, but an example where simply having the force doesn't make the action right... I'm not going to get into the history of isreal because A it's dodgy B it's not a justification for what is done on either side...
"why the hell do you think israel wants to expand??? "
forgive me if i'm wrong, but wasn't isreal a hell of a lot smaller than it is? So it expanded. Isn't the westbank getting bigger every year? So it's expanding. Also what's the map on isreal' money off?
my other comment is that the power is with the isreali's, They are far more reaslitically capable of stopping... if the palastinains stop, the west bank will expand, and the blows will be heavey.. if the isreali's stop, there maybe some opportunist little bastards, but the blows will be relatively light, and the palastinain poeple are more like to jump at the chance because they have everything to gain (while the isreali poeple are already comfortable, and who wants to share their hard earned wealth anyway?)... It's quite unrealist at the moment, but that to me seems the more likely soloution (perticularly if a new liberal prime minister makes it into office).. i do think it'll go the same way as South africa in the end...

Here's my take:
-Palistinians are not going to sit idly by and let their land be taken.
-Isrealis are not going to let their people be killed.

Both sides are equally responsible for putting pressure on the other in the way that they do. Both sides are allowing extreamists to lead and so both sides suffer.

Originally posted by PonyOne
"Sahid has a Kalashnikov that can hold 22 bullets. If he shoots ten infidels and misses twice, how many bullets has he left?"

It depends on if he shoots each infidel more than once.

A trick question . . .

.....I LIVE IN MEXICO......

Debes de estar uno de los ricos, entonces.

"You must be one of the rich ones, then"... Cheeky git..
All i can say is (few spanish phrase i learnt)...
"Tengo gusto de cabras también." dont ask me why.. it was funny at the time... I dont even know if it's right...
"Las cabras son diversión."
"vete a la mierda" I had to learn this one in case i went to spain... :D
"Tengo una ametralladora. Estancia lejos." Incase i went to coloumbia... heheheh
"No él yo, yo es pequeño." Incase I was ever caught doing something i wasnt suppoused to be doing (cough, cough)...
"¡Es legal!" to avoid those difficult passport questions...
and finally:
"tengamos un partido" just after a sucessful trip... through customs..
heheh.. I've just relized this maybe inappropraite for this thread.. hmmm. tough desicion.. should i post, or should i not?

[Edited by educatedfilm on 02-24-2002 at 05:41 PM]

Israeli soildger smashing a kids head with his gun?!
wow thats something new.. i mean i know quite many of them but i never heard that someone is doing that.
well if you belive that israel soildger can take his gun and smash someones head that is realy sad

Why israel is bigger than it was in the beggining???
The answer is simple: why the hell did the palestinians and their "friends" started so many wars against us???
example: we have ramat ha golan now, but we have it only because of the 1973 war which was started by the syrians

You like all the other arabs/muslim see us as some kind of monsters while in fact the arabs started all the wars in this region and the two of them that they didnt start they made israel to start.

Why cant you answer me the simple question: if we are so bad then how can it be that we are the only country in the whole world where palestinian refugees recived a citizenship in 1948???

Besides stop saying that israel wins the media war because we dont. just watch some bbc news or sky or anything...

Israel- expanding? hahahaha! yeah right! they did nothin but contract! they slowly gave back soooo much land!

The answer is simple: "why the hell did the palestinians and their "friends" started so many wars against us??? "
Because it was not ligetimatly set up!!! it was forced on them, and at the time of 48 it was occupation, and it was their right (under international law) to resist. also isreal has acted very much like a lawyer in all of this, with incidents like the "withdraw from occupied lands", and then only pulling out only from a few and saying we didn't say "the occpied lands" when the whole thing with egypt was going on...
Hold on, here isreal has started wars... simply played with technicaliteis, and secondly more rescntly released Isreali papers have shown that isreal did start the 56 war.. the point is it's not about history that's being played with, it's about now... and secondly alot of war no one really knows how they started...
"if we are so bad then how can it be that we are the only country in the whole world where palestinian refugees recived a citizenship in 1948???"
if remeber correctly most arab countries didn't even have independence back then... they were under british/ french/ itlain control, and gues who set up isreal in the first palce. See? Also this doesn't justfiy killing 3rd generation of palastinains does it?

i'm not saying Isreali's are monesters, i'm saying the governemnt that suppousedly represnts them is... I dont understand "loyalty", and why everyone steps behind the president when he goes to war... I mean, he's running the country into a disaster and everyone is suppourting. (he has led isreal into more voilnce when he promised he would sort it out... he hasn't)
The BBC isn't that bad (even though far a while they started calling the illigitamte killing of palastinains "target killings" and "collatral damage", but some papers picked up on this, and said it was rascits to have double standards)... but CNN and SKY call the murder of isreali's murder (which it is), but the murder of palastains other names given by Isreali millitary representatives... now is that fair? Also the papers, had the head line "arafat says "go to hell"", when the full story was he'd said "if anyone want to get in the way of a palastinain state (or freedome of the palastinains.. I cant remember the exact word used there), they can go to hell", after it was alledged that one of sharons representative was being agressive ...
What they're doing to the PLO at the moment is nothing but provication, and the rapidity of the first attacks on Arafat's office showed that it was indeed pre-planed (that's what a british military specialist said on the BBC) with the excuse he's not arresting enought poeple.. arresting something is better than the nothing he's doing at the moment because he's been put underhouse arrest (so the low number of arrests argument is by no means ligitimate), and it's now going to be more like the groups he had control over are going to join in, and it will be put as Isreal having put an old terrorist under house arrest, and when they were attacked for no reason by these terrrorist groups who are killing lots of isrealis, so isreal had to "defend" it's self (killing 3 to 4 for every isreal's is simply revenge not self defence) ... both side have their excuses lined up, everyone is avenging one or something... And why wont they biuld a wall between the settlers and the palastinains to end things? Because the settlers are cannon fodder, poeple sacraficed so there'll always be an excuse to carry on, and so the settelments can expand into palastinain areas (also another excuses wich suicide bomber have, being kicked out of their home to make way for isrealis)...I'm not saying hammas/ jihad are innocent, but they're not doing as much damage as isreal is doing... Do you see it's not black and white.. it's all shades of grey...
"well if you belive that israel soildger can take his gun and smash someones head that is realy sad "
hmmm, that's from amnesity international late 2000, when the soldier who got found out by reporters, so the isreali military were in an akward situation, so they arrested and tried him... which looked good in the news, but the verdict came a while later (which wasn't reported, as the story was "no longer significant"), and he got six month!!! For crying out loud!
Isreal has only given back some land because it had trouble keeping them, not out of kindness... be it from poeple like hezbollah, or simply having gained too much land in not enough time to defend it... It's certainly not doing any favours to lebanon a country that it completly destroyed, and killed 40,000 of simply becasue they wanted arafat and were not bothered to do the ground work... Arafat never killed anywhere near this figure, and those lebanese had nothing to do with it.. yet this is considered a victory!!!!!
if isreal has the right to "defend" it's citizens then the palastinains have the right to "defend" their citizens... and that's how the terrorist groups see it.. So you kill innocent palastinains and blame it on terrorist being mixed in with them, then you will get more terrorists, and the cycle will continue. The very heavy handed isreali tactics are in desprate need of being sorted, as isreal doesnt have the right to "defend her self as she sees fit" when it means killing innocent civilains, and extra judicail killings... These are the main issues which are not adressed..

[Edited by educatedfilm on 02-24-2002 at 07:07 PM]

If there is no voice of dissent in your own mind, are you really thinking?

Those that feel there is no hope for peace nor room for compromise should probably read this.

yeah... you need to mix poeple (isreali's will see palastinains aren't a bunch of bomb making scruffy mutts, and the palastains will see that the isreali's aren't a bunch of "kill the f-ing plasastinains" yahoos. like what's happening in northern ireland.. I'm not saying things there are great, but the fact that people mix in the city centre with out too much worry, cos they dont know if the person theyy jsut brushed past was prodestant or catholic, in the end he's a stranger... and the fact they've made it against the law to ask questions about religion (or to try and find out)... I mean there is hope... it lies with the media though... if tommorow, the papers and the news started publishing the figures of those dead and shown how little has been acheived (if anything)... poeple will see simply accepting the hated stranger is better for them and their kids... none of this war is worth fighting, there is too litle to gain for what you have to give up... but each side is sticking to the argument that if they stop the other will pounce, which a pretty difficult prediciment... hmmm, it will get sorted eventually... whether it's within my life time or not is a different matter...
Isn't that artical the same as basically what happened witht he south african rugby team..

Doesn anybody think that this argument is actually going to end up with one side convincing the other that they are right, and that the other side is wrong? I mean, I think it's been proven that both sides in these arguments that have cropped up are fairly set int heir ways - I am all for constructive argument if it is going to help but with both sides disputing evidence/quoting fairly dubious statistics that roll off the top of the head, etc. nothing is really helping.
At the same time, does anybody here think that a) Palestinians are wrong and Israel is blameless or b) vice versa? If you do, then perhaps some self examination might help. John Stuart Mill had a way of proving his theories that might be useful. He would go out of his way to find all of the evidence that would contradict his theory and his papers would follow a patternw hereby he would write one argument against his theory, then one to counter that. He would do this over and over, until he had run out of opposing ideas. This is an old form of argument that has unfortunately died out, but perhaps everyone here should give it a go. This is how I see it: most people here have come into this argument convinced that they are right, then set out to prove this, while ignoring whatever has been said by anyone else that may dispute their ideas. Is this likely to solve anything?

good idea

The fatal flaw with us (human beings), the flaw which will ultimately lead to our collective downfall as a species, is that we never learn from our mistakes. We have committed THE SAME atrocities throughout history. Look at the horrible treatment of human beings throughout history. The Chinese Dynasties, the Roman Empire, Colonization, Slavery, World War II, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, the middle east, the Philippines. I'm sure we could all think of many others to add to this list. There is one common thread that repeats itself. We feel compelled to fight these "Hatfield vs McCoy," battles in a perverse effort to preserve our particular society, a subset of our own species. Throughout history, we see someone different and instinctively fear their culture, their different appearance, their different beliefs. We feel the need to dominate them or eliminate them before accepting and incorporating them into our societies. We put rightous tags, like "our religion" or "our need to colonize" to rationalize these fears and actually get ourselves to believe that we are doing "what is right" or what is good. Before long two societies of human beings have cannibalized each other. Who was initially "right" or "wrong" or justified or whatever is completely lost in the atrocities committed by both sides. Ironically, our various religions, cultures, and ways of living have many startling underlying similarities, but more often than not we are too blinded by our fear and need to preserve ourselves to see them.

Our instinct to battle and preserve had a purpose many billions of years ago, but our world has evolved quite a bit since that time. Unfortunately, I believe we as human beings can envision and have seen evidence of a level of evolution where we freely accept others, but deep down we know that, collectively, human nature will never allow us to reach that level. It may or may not happen within our lifetime, but we will probably destroy our own species. We have the capacity to do so, and we have come within minutes of doing so twice already during the cold war. You'd think we would learn from these mistakes one of these days.

i know the solution! marijuana!

You guys must be super geniuses to come up with all this stupid sh*t.

I say damn it all to hell and just play your guitars!!! Got any of that weed left dude?

I´M MEXICAN AND WE DON´T LIVE, AS A SOCIETY THAT KIND OF PROBLEMS. I KNOW THAT THIS MURDER IS A BIG PROBLEM NOT ONLY FOR THE U.S. BUT FOR ALL THINKING HUMANS IN THIS WORLD. I FEEL SORRY FOR THAT, BUT ANSWER THIS...
WHY THIS SITUATIONS ONLY HAPPEN TO THE U.S. CITIZENS?

I KNOW IT ISN´T YOUR FAULT BUT YOUR GOVERNMENT, BUT WHY...?

I AS A MEXICAN I DON´T HAVE TO WORRY FOR THAT....

THATS WHEN I SAY: THANKS GOD I´M MEXICAN.

BUT THAT DOESN´T MEANS THAT IT DOESN´T MATTERS TO ME, IT MATTERS AND MATTERS A LOT.

Originally posted by Christoph

Debes de estar uno de los ricos, entonces.

WHAT I MEANT IS:

I´M MEXICAN AND WE DON´T LIVE, AS A SOCIETY THAT KIND OF PROBLEMS. I KNOW THAT THIS MURDER IS A BIG PROBLEM NOT ONLY FOR THE U.S. BUT FOR ALL THINKING HUMANS IN THIS WORLD. I FEEL SORRY FOR THAT, BUT ANSWER THIS...
WHY THIS SITUATIONS ONLY HAPPEN TO THE U.S. CITIZENS?

I KNOW IT ISN´T YOUR FAULT BUT YOUR GOVERNMENT, BUT WHY...?

I AS A MEXICAN I DON´T HAVE TO WORRY FOR THAT....

THATS WHEN I SAY: THANKS GOD I´M MEXICAN.

BUT THAT DOESN´T MEANS THAT IT DOESN´T MATTERS TO ME, IT MATTERS AND MATTERS A LOT.

WHAT HE REALLY WANTS TO WRITE IS THIS:

debes de SER uno de los ricos entonces.

thats the right way to express:

"You must be one of the rich ones, then"