theory vs learning songs

ever sence I started playing the guitar all i've practiced is theory and learning the concept of music but ive never practiced any song. which is really starting to bother me because when people come over an ask me to play something all i can do is run through a scale or show them some chords I know. I enjoy learning the guitar and i have fun trying to learn new scales, chords and or trying to develop my picking by learning how to do pintch harmonics and ect... but i dont know if im stupid for only practicing what makes up a song versus learning any songs. my thoughts were to give up the next couple of years and just practice theory and what makes music and how to apply that to the guitar in hopes i would have a better understanding of music and my instrument.

Do you think this is dumb? In the long run just practicing scales and chord, and learning theory do you think this will help me or hender my ability in future years?

one last question I dont understand this yet so bare with me but if you are playing a Gmaj scale and start with A and end with A this is called an A dorian. But what if your playing an A min pentatonic what would you call it if started out with C and ended with C? If you call that a C dorian then how would you distinguish between the A minor pentatonic and the A#\Bb major scale?

I had the same problem for a long time. People would ask me to play a song, and I would just shrug my shoulders and say - "How about a scale?" Needless to say, they weren't too impressed.

People always want to hear something that they recognize. It doesn't matter if it's Happy Birthday. It's always necessary, at least for a serious guitarist, to know the theory behind his instrument. But people are gunna want to hear some songs now and then, so you should go ahead and learn some. My advice would be to continue with the theory and to learn a few simple songs on the side. You'll be surpised at how learning songs can improve your knowledge of the instrument.

If you play A minor pentatonic and start and end at C, then it's C major pentatonic.

to be honest the only song i managed to learn completley with all the solos and everything was "you shook me all night long" by ac/dc. that doesnt mean i cant play other things, but i always prefer to learn only the small riffs or licks that i'll be able to use later.
it all depends on the style of a player you want to be, i think its very important to learn theory in the begining, but it wont do any bad if you'll learn few songs here and there, because learning just the theory is like learning how to drive, but without even sitting in the car.
of course if you want to impress the people around you should realy learn few songs, but i dont think it matters that much. the ammount of songs you know wont make you better, the whole point of learning songs is to learn how to write your own stuff while using things you learned from others

Dude I know exactly what you mean! I can't stand learning songs... I much prefer working on my own. And it's a shame because non-guitarists usually judge your ability based on how well you cover someone elses song. But don't worry, keep at it, and eventually people might be covering your songs.

O.K. I might have missed something, but for me the whole purpose of learning to play guitar is creating songs. Being a math student I can tell you that theory does you no good if you have no examples to study. Whether you're playing in a band or just composing and recording music, your final product will be a song of some kind. Learning strictly theory is pointless because the goal is to use it to create songs. This works both ways : learning only songs gives you no knowledge of the principles behind it, which are general for all songs. I've been playing in both cover and original bands, and learning theory simultaneously, going : "Sooo it's the dim chords and arpeggios that I was playing in Malmsteen songs (or trying to play)!". The answer, as for all dilemmas in life is simple : BALANCE!

P.S. Try learning songs by ear first, and then check the tabs. It's THE best way.

Crazyguy is totally right. Just learning music theory is useless unless you know how to apply it and can use it to create your own songs and riffs. If you are taking lessons, your teacher should be incorporating songs into your lesson material which are at your playing level and that go along with the theory that you are learning. If that's not the case, you should look for another teacher. Plus, you should be careful not to get too bogged down in music theory. Many music theory books focus on information, scales, chords, arpeggios, etc..., which may have some theoretical value but may be practically useless from a playing standpoint.

As for your theory question, if you play an A minor Pentatonic starting on the note, C, you are actually playing C major pentatonic, not C Dorian. Both A minor pentatonic and C Major Pentatonic are derived from the C Major Scale.

C Major Scale: C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

C Maj. Pent.: C, D, E, G, A, C

A min. Pent.: A, C, D, E, G, A

The Dorian mode is also derived from the major scale, not the pentatonic scales. So in the above example, the Dorian mode (which starts on the 2nd tone of the MAJOR scale) would be D Dorian. (D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D).

The A# / Bb Major Scale would have no bearing to the above example. However, C Dorian would be the Dorian mode for the Bb Major Scale. (It would actually be B# Dorian if you were referring to the scale as the A# Major Scale -- but this little point is an example of theory which, while technically true, is practically useless from a playing standpoint in my opinion.)

I like to look at the Major scale as the root of all scales, chords, arpeggios, etc. (keep in mind, other people have other theories) That way I have a reference point to build all the scales, chords, arpeggios that I use when I play. It makes playing and adding new concepts and riffs much easier for me.

[Edited by trebledamage on 12-11-2001 at 10:48 AM]

I just practised scales and chords for years. I didn't bother learning songs, I think I was too proud or hung up or something. All that theory really does help; I remember that when I learned
the Harmonic Minor scale I was absolutely thrilled and wrote my first half decent piece of music.
I'm not sure that it was necesarily the right way to learn though, most guitar music is pretty damn easy if you've been practicing technique and scales all the time. I know virtually no songs at all and sometimes that bothers me. Just this last year or so I've started playing along to other people's music, I've found it great fun. First work out the key without worrying how many wrong notes you are hitting, then, if you are not familar with the scale patterns draw out the fretboard with all the right notes marked on it. Finally just play along however you want to; it doesn't have to be right, give it practice and it'll get closer. I get the impression that most notes are not critical, they can be substituted so long as you don't go outside the scale and hit a clanger.

i've been playing for four years and i know lots of other people's songs, but i haven't studied much theory, which is something i kick myself for all the time. A friend of mine doesn;t play many songs by other people, but he knows a lot of theory. My music sounds like someone elses, his sounds dry and repetitive. YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER.

THIS WILL SOLVE ALL YOUR PROBLEMS. Take some of your favorites songs...learn to play the entire song. THEN go back and analyze the entire song...See how the guitar, bass, and drums all relate to one another. See what key the song is in...what type of scales are they soloing over. Cuz you gotta learn how notes and chords relate to one another. I think this will be very beneficial.

well.. i've never learned many songs.. but i have no problem with the learning part.. it's just boring to play other ppls music. it's much more fun to play what i make myself.. if not.. why not improvisate?
study.. huh.. well.. i've dona alittle of that.. but don't think it will halp me that much.. i understand the music.. and the theory have helped me.. to understand how to make chords, modulation, progressions, melodies etc. and to create it and play it.. that's my way.. still.. i'm pretty stuck to the classical 'rules'.. everytime i do something 'wrong' on purpose.. it's like.. 'dude, did u hear that? was that good? can i really do that? or should i change to what it really should be?'.. sometimes it's cool.. sometimes it's madness(i like madness).. and sometimes it's just stupid...

This is probably why i never have learnt to play jazz.. and probably never will.. to complicated.. not clear enough rules.. and.. i really don't like jazz that good...

Sivert Skaaren
aka Acron

I thought that jazz was complicated, and then, I started listening to it...
I thought it sounded like a bunch of weird notes played at warp speed with a drummer that kept on hitting on the wrong spots...
Then, I got the hang of it, I started to enjoy the way the went from one target note to the other...
Then, I started to experiment those paths...
Then, I started to understand how they had created those paths (the theory behind it)
Now, I play jazz, and I'll tell you the truth, through miles DAVIS' words: "I'll play it first, then tell you what it is..."
Theory is not something on its own, it's to expand the bounderies of your playing... You don't learn words one by one reading the dictionnary, you eventually learn them when you need them, and look up for it if you can't decipher its meaning...
You'll try to put them in your sentences at first, thinking "here's a good spot where I can show my knowledge", and after a while, you just say it, without thinking about it...
That's the same with theory...

In my opinion theory is the understanding of what others play. If you write from a calculated theorem you aren't really writing. Learing and understanding music theory enables you to understand why someone elses ideas work and how you may better utilize them to incorperate them into your own style of playing. Understanding why.....eliminates the guess work that many players must under go.

Arguments for both sides are many. But I don't think you sacrifice by knowing anymore than you gain by discovery of new or foreign things. Either way you end up at the same end.

Just don't get too caught up in "What does and doesn't work" to miss all of the things that Hendrix, Zappa, Vai, and others stumbled onto.

It's a world of notes that you will never play the same twice in a row. Enjoy the fact that knowledge is the "ticket in the door" not the whole show.

All the best!!!!!! :cool:

Bach did this for a lot of his music, and he wrote some pretty hip stuff. Some times it can sound very mathmatical, but everything can't be straight from the heart. Personally I like music that contains an even amount of emotion and technicallity, too much of either or can get boring.
As well as the theory vrs song thing I think it depends on your personality and learning style. As for myself, I like to know as much as possible about whatever I set out to accomplish, whether it be computers, music, or fitness, I don't think knowledge hurts you. But I know I like to see things make sense on paper before I apply it to guitar, or computer, or whatever.
Learning theory will not styfle your creativity, and the long run it will expand it greatly. Over my years of playing/studying I've learned you can apply any note over any chord if you approach it correctly. The process it took to get to this point was long (to not only understand it but hear it). But the pt is it is a process, and the more you understand how things work the more creative you will become.

i hate how non-musicians judge musicians on how good they perform other poeple's music. agreed?

i think theory will give you the tools to learn songs faster.
When you get a good hold on how songs work, you will see patterns emerge, this will help you play by ear and improvise later on.

http://www.chrisbsmusic.com

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
i hate how non-musicians judge musicians on how good they perform other poeple's music. agreed?

Remember that musicians play for musicians AND non musicians alike. What makes players stand out is when they are considered great by the two kind of listeners (Jimi HENDRIX, Van Halen, Jimmy PAGE, Slash, George BENSON...). Playing "Music for Musicians" eventually leads to styles like shred, where performance takes over music.

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
i hate how non-musicians judge musicians on how good they perform other poeple's music. agreed?

i dont agree with you as well..
i hate how the musicians judge other musicians much more.
usualy the non musicians will just notice the harmony or the lack of harmony in the song, while a musician will hear everything you do. he will notice when you are out of tune, and when you are not playing with steady rhythm. he will tell you that he had heard this harmony 10000000000 times already, before you had used it.
basicly dont ever let other musicians to judge you music, because it will only depress you.

oh! man! i forgot about that...i hate that too. well non-musicians so far with me have been thouroughly impressed, but musicians are always like "yea, well..." then they trail off, kina a weird vibe

I like playing for other musicians because I think they get it on A much deeper level then the non-musician. I think non musicians are much more enthusiastic though. There seems to be this thing with other musicians like"yeah I think your pretty good but I'm not gonna tell you that though."

Originally posted by chris mood
There seems to be this thing with other musicians like"yeah I think your pretty good but I'm not gonna tell you that though."

Once, I had gone through a whole week only listening to Shawn lane CDs and videotapes, and I had a jam on friday night. So I played the most tasteless jam of my entire life, with the worst licks ever, played twice faster than anything audible...

Well, the audience didn't clap (and I guess they didn't boo because I'm close to 300 pounds) but the other guitarist on the band could have married me if I wanted him too.

Isn't art weird?