theory vs learning songs

non musicians and me too actualy dont like music which is not simple.
pop selling well because its all built around very simple harmonies and turn arounds.
many musicians think they will be counted as good musicians if they will listen to different kinds of crap and then make themselves like they realy understand something.

BALANCE!!!!!!!BALANCE!!!!and more balance
This I think is really the key.Of course theory helps but so does lesrning songs.All of these things allow us to be creative and communicate something through the music we make and love so well.As for whether non musicians or musicians are more critical....so what....we play and write because we love it ,and feel we can express something.It seems to me that if you like what you hear yourself playing than it's all good and f--- those guys who judge.You will never please everyone all the time.As far as musicians go remember the ego factor...good luck..

I've learned both songs and theroy, and I can sympythise with anyone who said "people only want to hear songs, because I'm more comfortable with the stuff I just make up." I think it is important to learn both. If your just learning theroy from a teacher I wouldn't quit, but I would buy a songbook or look for some internet tab to pratice on the side. After all everyone started playing because of the music they heard and loved so why not try playing it on your own. I've also found that learning songs with the theroy that applies to them has helped me learn new rythms and teniques that will eventually break me out of that repetive mode I've been stuck in.


As for the Scale question. I thought A minor pentationic a Cmaj pentationic scales were exactly the same, because they were both composed of the same notes, regardless of where you start or finish. This is why A is the relative minor in the key of C. Notice that A minor scales are the same as A major scales. I will confess that I can't answer any questions about the Dorian scale because all I know is one position I learned form a scale chart... Opps I've alerady forgot It better go look for that chart.

i play songs ( a few, i have to, otherwise people wont think i know anything) but i play them like folk songs...you wanna hear a folk version of "Casey Jones"?

come to my house then.

its mostly for me songwise, folk stuff , grateful dead stuff i dilluted a little, changed a little. and i learn a few songs a month, then just go through them once a week or so, than the rest of the week i practice my improvisation, and since i got GUITAR PRO 3.0 ( thanks who ever suggested that...) i can start to understand where my ideas are coming from. the idea is, in front of people when u are starting out, you dont want to just "impress them" a whole lot because the next time you play for them, if you cant improvise, its just the same thing over and over again. i think music theory is the most important.

It's not dumb to love studying theory by any means. However, the way that you learn it is the key. Try to learn the kind of music that you want to, not the kind that your friends want you to. If you pick something like an obscure intrumental, they're likely to be a whole lot more impressed anyway. Odds are that they've never heard it before, so they have nothingto compare it to. Secondly, learn how the classical composers applied theory to their compositions (there are tons of rules involved, but it can be very beneficial to you). You might even try to do your own arrangements of classic songs. With all your background in scales and chords, you probably have quite an ear on you. Give it a whirl! I arrange stuff all of the time for my own pleasure (mind you, these are instrumental arrangements of lyric songs so you might not be interested in that kind of thing). Whatever makes you happy as a musician should be your motivation for learning. Keep on keepin' on.

ok i seriously think that (as of now) the improvisation i do right now comes directly from me! i dont do other people's solos, in songs that i know the key (mostly songs in A), i make my own solos up! of course i know a few, and listening to music influences it, but i think right now i play alot from the heart. is that good or bad?

Okay, I'm gonna throw my two cents in to this thread. I read most of the posts and I'm trying to keep things straight in my head so I make sense. If I don't I apologize.

First off, the debate. Ask any MUSICIAN and they'll tell you that theory is better to learn than songs. Anyone can play a song, you're just copying another guitarist. To know the theory behind it and why everything ties in like it does is another thing. I agree, everyone wants to hear songs, no one wants to hear a scale, but there are ways to do both. How about a twelve bar blues??? Everyone knows it, and you can practicing your improvisation, scales and licks and everyone gets into it. I think it's fun trading off licks with another guitarist and the "non-musicians" really get into it to.

Which brings me to the other debate. I agree, I hate non-musicians who judge musicians too, but I hate "aspiring rock stars" who judge musicians even more. If you're not clear on what I'm saying, refer back to the last paragraph. The "aspiring rock stars" are the ones who know a hundred different songs (and usually cool ones)but don't know an Ionian scale from their ass. I worked with a guy like that and he pissed me off to know end. He would hang out with the band I was with, pick up a guitar and play an STP song (not all the way through mind you) and next thing I know he's telling everyone he's in our band! He could play STP, Great White, Eagles, etc.. but have him deviate from anything and he's was f#$king clueless. He wanted the "glory" and that was it. He sang like an 80 year old whore getting rodgered, had the rhythm of an elephant and his ear was so bad, couldn't figure out the key to a song, much less change the key fluidly and he could never tell when he was out of tune...but he knew songs.

If you know the theory it opens up so many doors. Learn to read music too (which I think should be part of the theory, but nowadays it's not). The "posers" can play songs, but can they take a piano part and transpose it to the guitar?? I think not.

Originally posted by ScottyTooHotty
The "posers" can play songs, but can they take a piano part and transpose it to the guitar?? I think not.

Once again, I put myself in the spot of the devil's advocate: Isn't music about songs, feelings, and lyrics?

Who gives a flying crap about the key you wrote your tune in? Would you care if I told you your lyrics were inpired by latin words?

Theory is a means of communicating with musicians, understanding a song to create one that's yours, but for anything else, you can throw it in the garbage...

Lots of music greats have gone beyond theory to get to the heart of music: melody. Listen to Mozart, anyone can understand him, even if you're not a music whizz. I've heard classical cats saying he was almost easy listening, well, if you prefer Bartok and dodecaphonism, good for you, but don't tell me they strike the same feelings. If you listen to music to think, then theory is important. But I listen to music to be moved...then I try to understand it, and it loses a lot of its magic...

Okay, good point and I agree. I play/listen to songs that move me. I'm a Tesla fan and to this day, the version of "Love Song" on the Five Man Acoustical Jam disc still sends chills up my spine. My point, though, was by learning theory it makes the creative process flow and by creating you can hence move people.

yep,
but still, nobody knows the 'magic formula' to move people with music, that's why it's so great.

My songs that people enjoy always seem to me as if I hadn't written them, as if it was god's gift...

Look. No one ever goes out to a club to hear a band play "theory." You go to hear musicians play songs. So learning theory is not your ultimate goal. Playing songs is the ultimate goal. However; you need to have a solid foundation in music theory in order to be able to create your own songs or put your stamp on someone else's song.

Like Scotty said, everyone knows of a guitar player who can play a bizillion songs from other bands, but has no idea how or where that band's music fits into the grand scheme of music. Consequently, that player is like a deer caught in the headlights when he or she is in a situation that calls for some form of improvization.

And everyone know of a guitar player who can play a bizillion complex scales, arpeggios, chords, etc..., one who knows a lot about theory but has no idea how to use those tools to create a melody, entertain an audience, compose a solo that fits into a song, or enhance the performance of the other musicians in the band around him or her.

The point is that there really is no debate. You need to learn theory AND you need to learn songs. One without the other leaves a serious gap in your ability to play your instrument. More importantly, it leaves a gap in your ability to play your instrument with other musicians.

i think songs are easier to learn once you have the theory

Tough break if I want to play jazz, my band won't cover "for whom the bell tolls"...

I'm guessing that the thrashing verses would be replaced with some sort of swing beat?

I started out learning guns n roses, note for note on songs like Sweet Child o Mine and Welcome to the Jungle. After a year of playing I can play pretty much most of Guns n Roses songs, and this is how-
I never learnt scales, why? because every slash/songs solo is based on a scale and by learning the solo and the notes used your obviously learning that scale!! So for a song like "Its so Easy" Ive learned the song note for note till the 2nd solo. Its not a very interesting solo and doesnt stand out much so i didnt learn it. Instead i re-used the notes from the first solo to play along with to the 2nd. So when i get in a band and hopefully we cover it i'll just do something sponteanous! Not to say am going to play something different everytime, i always fall into the same sort riff/hook.
This is far more important than learning noodled solos and outos, its understanding "what sounds good" what fits! So for solos like November Rain outro, instead of learning a solo comprised of a massive combinaiton of frets 15, 16, 18 on the first string, 15, 17, 18 on the 2nd etc, just remember the notes/frets used and follow the flow of the song!! so when it comes to improvising you know exactly what songs right!!

Later Axl

Yes you need BOTH. THeory is a great tool to understand music--but in the end, live on stage-with people watching and listening to you--you better be playing MELODIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A four note melodie that sticks in your head for 5 hours is much more impressive that a lyidan-augmented scale played at lightning speed against a 7b5 chord in 6/8 time. My point is that music is a language. If you dont connect with your audience then they wont pay to see you again! (and the bar wont hire you back)--------Just think melodies and the BEATLES they wrote the most famouse melodies in the world. if i type YESTERDAY..... you know the melodie thats music!

the problem with not knowin theory is context.
ya can learn all these songs n have all these
great licks n think that since this works with
a C in one song it'll work in another but it
aint so.there are many ways to present your licks
but they gotta fit with the song and with wut
the other musicians r doin. ya play yer A minor
pentatonic like ya do in one song in C but it needs
to be flavored differenty if the song is in G.
Am is not the same in different keys.and nothin
is more frustratin than playin with a guitarist
who keeps throwin in these 'leading' notes that dont
fit and only add clutter to the song,if not totally
take away from the song. learn theory. if ya dont,ya
aint a serious musician in my opinion. anybody can
cover somebody else. if ya cant understand it, yer
hackin. sorry if i sound severe, but i never play
twice with hackers. takes too long to try to figure
out which language to use. learn theory and everybody
can be on the same page. you can do anything ya want
with your music, but if ya dont know theory yer usin
the splash technique, kindo like throwin paint on the
canvass and callin it art. your choice though. i always
suggest doin the work and gettin good.