when a guitar is not a production guitar any longer...


the fool
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the fool
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02/26/2004 3:54 am
Long post but very interesting story, maybe you guys can help me out- especially guitar dealers out there. Days ago, I contacted Gibson to find out when they started to introduce and discontinue the Epiphone Les Paul ES model because I heard it was very short lived, and owning one myself, I just felt that I gotta find some info about my Epiphone Les Paul ES. I was pretty excited and I wanted to know if my guitar was one of the last ones they made being made in 2002- based from what a Roger Ball from Gibson customer service told me, by looking at my guitar's serial number. To my amazement and shock, the guy from Gibson customer service said that the Epiphone Les Paul ES was first introduced in 1999 and was immediately discontinued in the year 2000! I mailed him back and said it can't be! If the Epiphone Les Paul ES was already discontinued in 2000, how can my guitar be made in 2002 because mine is a 2002 Epiphone Les Paul ES. He told me that my Les Paul ES could have been a run ordered by a specific dealer or dealers because The Les Paul ES wasn't on the price list in 2002. He said that dealers can order guitars to certain specs, so there's always a chance that a guitar that may not be a production guitar any longer may show up in a store. Isn't this amazing? This means, that even if a guitar is no longer in production, it can still show
up in stores! Now my questions to you guitar dealers is this: When it comes to resale value or collectibility, what's the difference if there's any between production guitars and guitars made that are no longer in production
of the same model? Surely the guitar model that was made after it was no longer in production is not a recopy of the production made guitar. I asked the guys at Gibson customer service my Epiphone ES is a copy of the production line Epiphone ES, but they said its not a copy. They said its a real actual Epiphone Les Paul ES- only its not a production line anymore. I'm still pretty confused over the whole thing. Can you guys help me out?

"Lets see… well I play the guitar and when I'm not playing the guitar, I think about playing the guitar. My other favorite instrument, is the guitar and if I aspired to play any other instrument, it would be the guitar...

I can’t sing so I sing through my guitar. So when the sound guy says: “Your guitar is too loud!” I think: "Why does he never say that to the vocalist?"
# 1
Hammurabi
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Hammurabi
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02/26/2004 3:58 am
I don't think there would be much difference with an epi, but with a company like PRS I'm pretty sure it would.
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 2
the fool
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the fool
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02/26/2004 4:01 am
ok then, if it was any other brand like a PRS or a Gibson, would it matter? And which would be more collectible?
"Lets see… well I play the guitar and when I'm not playing the guitar, I think about playing the guitar. My other favorite instrument, is the guitar and if I aspired to play any other instrument, it would be the guitar...

I can’t sing so I sing through my guitar. So when the sound guy says: “Your guitar is too loud!” I think: "Why does he never say that to the vocalist?"
# 3
Lordathestrings
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Lordathestrings
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02/26/2004 4:46 am
  • Unless you're about to sell it, concepts like collectability are meaningless outside of insurance premiums. And it's up to the insurer to set those.


  • If it is some kind of 'collector's item' guitar, any mods you do will reduce the value. Which means that some artificial collector's criteria prevent you from making any changes that produce a more playable/enjoyable instrument.


  • If there are some mods you want to do, and if your Epi is some kind of collectible, your best course of action is to sell it to some fossilised collector, put the cash toward an instrument better suiited to your needs, and get on with your life.


  • 'List' and 'Blue Book' prices are theoretical guidelines. The true test of something's worth is the actual price someone pays you for it. And then it's gone.

Lordathestrings
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# 4
Hammurabi
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Hammurabi
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02/26/2004 4:51 am
I think if it was a brand like fender that does vintage reissues that would have all kinds of potential. If PRS did that with a pre-1995 model that would definitely sell for more than they used to. Other than that I don't know.

I think Fender would have the greatest difference. Gibson wouldn't as much because there are all kinds of old used gibsons floating around for a decent price whereas vintage fenders cost all kinds of $$.
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 5
the fool
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the fool
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02/26/2004 6:39 am
Lordathestrings

No, I'm not planning to sell it. I just asked the question because I wanted to know the difference between a guitar made as a production line (between the time it was first manufactued as a production line and discontinued as a production line) and a guitar made after it was discontinued (not a reissue of the production line, rather just a guitar that is no longer a production line as those guys at Gibson puts it). Let's say a limited custom shop Gibson LP was introduce in 1995 and was discontinued in 1996. Then a Custom shop Gibson LP of the very same model came out in 1998- when it comes to collectors who buy limited edition guitars, which will be more valuable? They're the same models. The only weird thing is that one
was made after the model was allegedly discontinued.

Hammurabi
but i'm not talking about vintage reissues. you see that's what I thought too when the guy at the customer service said that my Les Paul ES could have been a "run" ordered by a specific dealer because it is a 2002 and the ES has been discontinued since 2000. I thought he meant that my Les Paul ES is a reissue of the production line Les Paul ES that was already discontinued when he said this, but when I emailed him about it, he said that my ES is not a recopy or a reissue. He said it's a real Les Paul ES- only its no longer a production line. This is the statement that I am confused about and I was wondering whats the difference- the fact that a guitar, that is not a reissue exists after the alleged model has been discontinued two years before it was made! mind boggling isn't it?




"Lets see… well I play the guitar and when I'm not playing the guitar, I think about playing the guitar. My other favorite instrument, is the guitar and if I aspired to play any other instrument, it would be the guitar...

I can’t sing so I sing through my guitar. So when the sound guy says: “Your guitar is too loud!” I think: "Why does he never say that to the vocalist?"
# 6
Hammurabi
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Hammurabi
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02/26/2004 7:09 am
Looks like something got misinterpreted.

I wasn't talking about it as a reissue. I was saying it would be special if it was another company because it isn't a reissue. What would make it valuable from a company like fender or prs is they have a tradition based on age, so getting something from their golden years without it being a common market reissue really would be something. Like your own custom model. With epi it's just one of those wierd things that happen, the fact that it wasn't in the main line of production doesn't mean much. It's odd, yes. Strange or significant, no.
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 7
Lordathestrings
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Lordathestrings
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02/26/2004 9:39 am
Excitement? Nah. Respect? Hell, yes! My killer FJ1200S only runs about a second faster than that, and it only weighs 565 pounds! ([u]before[/u] I get on it, of course. :rolleyes: )
Lordathestrings
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# 8
DiminishedDevil
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DiminishedDevil
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02/26/2004 7:05 pm
All PRS's have been mass produced for a long time now. I think since 98 give or take a year. If you look at most new PRS there are gobs of glue dripping out from under the fret board. Gibson are also all mass produced to. These companies are both low quality. For $2000. Noway. All the compainies are welfare these day. ALL!!!!! just do some research and pick up a quality used anything off e-bay. For less that a welfare new one costs
# 9
Hammurabi
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Hammurabi
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02/26/2004 8:11 pm
I think it was 95. At the least that's when they changed their design to the new and very infamous neck joint.
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 10
Dr_simon
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02/26/2004 9:41 pm
OK well in defense of PRS my CE24 doesn't have any gobs of anything anywhere, other than style, good-looks, playability and fantastic tone. It is just a really beautiful guitar.

As far as discontinued goes, well the Epi was probably discontinued for a reason and I doubt it was due to Gibson having to take a loss selling such an excellent axe at such a low price !
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
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# 11
the fool
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the fool
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02/27/2004 12:40 am
thnx everyone- you've all been helpful. i finally understand.
"Lets see… well I play the guitar and when I'm not playing the guitar, I think about playing the guitar. My other favorite instrument, is the guitar and if I aspired to play any other instrument, it would be the guitar...

I can’t sing so I sing through my guitar. So when the sound guy says: “Your guitar is too loud!” I think: "Why does he never say that to the vocalist?"
# 12
Hammurabi
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Hammurabi
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02/28/2004 8:49 pm
Just to be fair, PRS makes great guitars. I've never seen a prs with a problem like excess glue. The one and only thing about prs guitars I know about that could be considered a construction problem is the neck joint extends more than it used to, but I've never owned one so I can't say whether or not it even makes a difference. I doubt it does.

The only thing about prs guitars I don't like is they cost a lot. Many of them (like private stock) you could get entirely hand made and customized by any of several world-class luthiers with all the same or better details for less money.

I'm actually going to be building my own prs knockoff from warmoth parts as soon as I get a better job with more hours. I greatly doubt it's going to be as good as a real prs, but it's definitely going to be fun trying.

I wonder if PRS is ever going to make a neck-through model..that would be intense.


"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 13
Dr_simon
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02/28/2004 9:04 pm
I have a post '95 PRS with the "Heel from Hell" and let me assure you that that term, as well as the associated playing problems are an invention of Ed Roman in an attempt to sell Quicksilver guitars.

They are meaningless.


My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS
# 14
Hammurabi
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Hammurabi
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02/28/2004 9:47 pm
Yeah, I was wondering about it because I've seen photos of the newer neck heels and they looked good to me.

I would buy a prs over something by Ed Roman easily. He's more than a little infamous as far as customer relations go and not everything he says matches up with reality. Besides, PRS guitars look way better imo.
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 15
the fool
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the fool
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02/29/2004 4:09 am
speaking of ed roman, everyone ever tried any of his custom made guitars? i heard they're really good.
"Lets see… well I play the guitar and when I'm not playing the guitar, I think about playing the guitar. My other favorite instrument, is the guitar and if I aspired to play any other instrument, it would be the guitar...

I can’t sing so I sing through my guitar. So when the sound guy says: “Your guitar is too loud!” I think: "Why does he never say that to the vocalist?"
# 16
Hammurabi
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Hammurabi
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02/29/2004 4:44 am
I hear they're overrated. They're good, but I don't see the justification for him calling them the best.
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 17
the fool
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the fool
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02/29/2004 5:08 am
how good? just curious because from his site and from the reviews of people from harmony central of his custom made guitars, it seems like everyone is really 100% satisfied on the quality and function of the guitar he makes. Even rock stars go to him. It seems to me that he really knows what he's talking about- very honest and straightforward guy, and I find his rants very informative. I find him credible enough base from the researches that I've made that I'm actually planning to have him make me a nice custom guitar.
"Lets see… well I play the guitar and when I'm not playing the guitar, I think about playing the guitar. My other favorite instrument, is the guitar and if I aspired to play any other instrument, it would be the guitar...

I can’t sing so I sing through my guitar. So when the sound guy says: “Your guitar is too loud!” I think: "Why does he never say that to the vocalist?"
# 18
Hammurabi
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Hammurabi
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02/29/2004 5:52 am
Look into Driskill guitars sometime, I personally think they're better instruments and Joe is completely legendary for his friendly approach to business. It's not hard to find customers who found Ed arrogant and condescending and a general asshole, but I seriously doubt Joe has ever had a customer in his life who wasn't perfectly happy about everything. Read the reviews for him sometime, they're better than Ed's.

Or Thorn, or Chapin, or Lentz, or Abyss, or Victor Baker. See, what Ed doesn't realize is that what he likes and what fills his wallet isn't what's perfect or what's best for everybody, and he doesn't do business on as much of a personal level, which I believe is necessary when dealing with custom guitars. Any one of those companies I mentioned could build the perfect guitar for you with everything you could ever dream of in a guitar and you would never need another guitar in your life unless it was stolen. Ed Roman seems more like he pieces together his model guitars by general properties and ships them out indiscriminately. Slap a thin neck on a quicksilver or pagan and solder it all together and he's done. Many other, and I believe better, luthiers will go out of their way to make the guitar for you. They will shape every little part of the construction to fit your every choice in tonal nuance and feel and make sure they understand what it is you're looking for (it's not uncommon hearing stories of how a certain luthier was able to 'snatch' a tone from someone's head they were having a hard time putting into words. very amazing, imo), they will go out of their way to make sure the guitar is what you want (I've heard stories of Joe mailing people guitar necks in the middle of construction to make sure they were perfectly satisfied with the feel and look of it), things like that.
"If one has realized a truth, that truth is valueless so long as there is lacking the indomitable will to turn this realization into action!"
-A.H.
# 19
Dr_simon
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02/29/2004 1:39 pm
Originally posted by the fool
how good? just curious because from his site and from the reviews of people from harmony central of his custom made guitars, it seems like everyone is really 100% satisfied on the quality and function of the guitar he makes. Even rock stars go to him. It seems to me that he really knows what he's talking about- very honest and straightforward guy, and I find his rants very informative. I find him credible enough base from the researches that I've made that I'm actually planning to have him make me a nice custom guitar.


Dude, he is a sales man in Las Vagas, does that not mean anything to you ?
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
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# 20

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