How many scales are in a mode?

This is confusing the hell out of me.

You need to reverse the question around, "How many modes are in a scale."
That would depend on how many notes are in the scale. In a major scale you have 7 notes, therefor there are 7 modes, 1 starting on each note.

Why?

Ok.... try it this way.

Aolian, Dorian etc etc., what are each of those pattern things refered to as? Are each of them called a different scale or a different mode?

When you get a group of all seven of them together - what is that refered to as?

- and therefore, is it always true that there are always seven of each of those 'Aolian' type things in every group of them and if so, how is it refered to in musical terms?

Or is that whole thinking totally screwed up.

Your getting totally screwed up. ;) I'm not sure what it is your asking but I can see your digging too deep and your just getting confused. Just think of each of the modes (dorian, phrygian...) as individual scales. The only relationship they have with the major scale is they come from the major scale but by starting on a note other than the root. So each mode is a different scale to play with. That's your first step and your basis for understanding modes.

Modes come from scales, not the other way around. A mode is what happens when you start the scale from any note other than the first tone. For instance, play a major scale starting from the second tone, and you get the Dorian mode.

Hope that helps, otherwise ask noticingthemistake for more.

Originally posted by Digit


When you get a group of all seven of them together - what is that refered to as?

A Party!?!?

Ok modes do exist within modes if that's what your wondering. Only it works out to just another mode. Take G mixolydian (GABCDEFG), now start it with the 4th note (CDEFGABC). You got the Ionian mode now, or major scale. There's really no need to think this much because you could just start off thinking of the major scale. Too much work, no benefits. Most of the scales used in western music are diatonic. The diatonic scales are major, minor, and harmonic and melodic minor. Modes are a different variation of these scales. The variation as you probably know it using the same notes but in a different interval pattern. See how it breaks down. Everything else has be noted but if you need more, check the search option. I'm sure you find more than you need to know about modes, if not just ask (as christoph has volunteered me for ;) ). But try to be more specific by using nouns instead of pronouns. Instead of "group of 'them'", say "group of modes" or whatever your asking. Just so I know exactly what your asking next time. :)

I don't believe this.

What exactly are you in disagreement with?

Mode within a mode? That is extended logic. What exists is being ignored! This has already been done! What else can be said?

you remind me of a dude that keeps on posting on one of my german messageboards. he keeps on talking through mystifying sentence and word-constructions, in a tone that makes him sound like he´s 500 levels above god. but infact he is neither heping anyone with his post nore do they make too much sence at all. if you dont have anything constructive to say, then better dont say anything at all.

ok.. the MODES are sectors or excerpts (with the span of an octave) from a diatonic 2-octave scale starting with A (a)
There are always two modes that fit together. they have the same "finalis" (finishing note). The halftones are always between e and f and between b and c. the modes are not scales in the strict sense of the word. they are just fragments of scales that encapsualte the note-material of melodies used as model.

There are Authentic (original) and Plagal (derrived) modes. The authentic modes are formed over the finalis. the plagal modes do have the finalis in the middle of the "scale". as i mentioned above, there is for every authentic mode an according plagal mode. you can easily find it by taking the finalis of an authentic mode and go 4 notes down - thats the first tone of the relative plagal mode. The authentic modes are called dorian, phrygian, lydian and mixolydian. the plagal modes have an added sylable "hypo" infront (eg: hypodorian). furthermore there are the modes aeolean and ionian. these two modes correspond to todays A-minor and C-major. if you build a mode on B it is called lokrian.

The modes have already been used (without him knowing it) in the 4th century by Ambrosius of Milano. Pope Gregor the great was the first to sysematically sort the different forms of choral music which made it more easy and standardized. this was in the 6th century and thats when famous choral-schools developed like Paris, Metz, Aachen and Mainz. Aurelianius Reomensis was the first to give he modes hteir old names (9th century) - Protus authentus and Protus plagalis. in the 10th century the names of the single modes where added and in 1547 H. Glarean added the above mentioned aeolean and ionian modes.

The modes where the musical and theoretical basis fr medieval music. they lost their importance at the end of the 16th century because major and minor got more and more dominating. in the 19th and 20th century the modes have made a revival in art-music and especially in jazz.

The modes have been developed in the gregorian chant. it is not the half-steps that characterise the modes but melodical phrases. the modes are (as a novelity) linked to the finalis. modes are - because of their simplicity - very good to accompany vocal music melodically. the melody was not the imortant part - the important part was the lyrics. the melody was only making the text easier to learn and it was easier to transport the meaning and feeling when it was sung. a good example where the minnesingers. it was basically vocals that where used to attract women - and that was easier when accompanied by music (mostly only a simple melody with one instrument). and thats where the modes where used too.

and a short list:

Dorian (d‘ – d‘‘) Hypodorian (a – a‘)
Phrygian (e‘ – e‘‘) Hypophrygian (h – h‘)
Lydian (f‘ – f‘‘) Hypolydian (c‘ – c‘‘)
Mixolydian (g‘ – g‘‘) Hypomixolydian (d‘ – d‘‘)
Ionian (c‘ – c‘‘) Hypoionian ( g – g‘)
Aeolian (a‘ – a‘‘) Hypoaeolian (e‘ – e‘‘)
Lokrian ( h – h‘)

hope that helped to clarify that thing a bit.

Hahaha. @ azreal's first post. I can only laugh at that since my new found ethic towards griphon. "lol"

Second Az, you sure do know your history. I have been reading a bit on the subject but haven't gotten it stamped in the noggit just yet. On the subject of hypo modes, I have found several different explainations. All seem to be legit in their own way but one seems really simple and easy to distinquish. Since I have had some people ask about them, I'd like to have your take on it if you would.

* The simplest and easiest was an explanation that hypo-modes are easily used by playing a mode (say D Dorian) and start the melodic phrase on the fifth being A. So then the finalis would work out to be D, the plagal note of A aeolian. So if you were to play a tune starting on A and ending on D, it would be A hypo-aeolian.

This seems alittle more modern for some reason but it reasons with the ideas of starting a tune of the fifth rather than the tonic. Simply by renaming the fifth as the first, and the old first becomes the new fourth. Sorry if that's hard to understand. Anyways your thoughts on this would be appreciated since you seem to know more about this than I do.

Originally posted by Azrael
you remind me of a dude that keeps on posting on one of my german messageboards. he keeps on talking through mystifying sentence and word-constructions, in a tone that makes him sound like he´s 500 levels above god. but infact he is neither heping anyone with his post nore do they make too much sence at all.

Believe it or not, his posts make perfect sense. Sure, you have to read them several times to fully understand the justification, but it is there in front of your eyes. The challenge is to force yourself to think on a deeper level of liguistics......major problem with the wold today, everybody is so quick to judge everything on a surface level (music, art, people, relationships, etc), sometimes we overlook to see the truth.

Yeah they do make sense if you understand the concept. But they don't help someone who is wanting to understand the concept. The thread question is "how many scales are in a mode". I explained that modes exist within modes but they work out to be pre-existing modes. <>. He says he can't believe it and when asked why he restated what I said, "modes within a mode? that's extended knowledge". Then he goes on to what else could be said. Perhaps an explaination of why it's extended knowledge, instead of the short story. The question is whom is he addressing?? Not someone who is asking a question cause to them it's jibberish. Instead assume they don't understand and explain. There's alot more to say than "modes within a mode? that is extended knowledge". Why? Because they clearly do not understand the concept, so it helps to show them why that concept is overthoughtful. Not just that it's extended knowledge.

That and talking like that does make you sound above another, better to talk with them.

"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.

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Originally posted by griphon2
Mode within a mode? That is extended logic. What exists is being ignored! This has already been done! What else can be said?

Ok, I know what you're thinking, even though it's hard to understand what you mean by this post. The difference between the two modes is the number of steps between notes. So all the modes can have the same notes and still be different because they begin and end on DIFFERENT notes. Observe:

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

whole step--half--whole--whole--half--whole--whole

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

whole step--whole--half--whole--whole--whole--half

Different, see?
That's what a mode is, a pattern of steps.

Man... you guys have either totally lost me or totally misunderstood the question.
You've gone off in some direction that I don't have a clue what your talking about.
Think baby steps here. Something intended to teach somebody brand new to theory who's been playing for many years.
I'm trying to figure out what the names of things are, simple as that.

1) Aolian, Dorian, Phrygian etc... as seperate entities, what are they called? (modes? scales?)

2) When you get a whole 'group' of them together, what are they called? (a scale? a mode?)

3) Are there always seven of those aolian type things in a full group of them?

Most of them have been answered in the beginning. Here they are again.

1) Aolian, Dorian, Phrygian etc... as seperate entities, what are they called? (modes? scales?)

Modes. Everytime you see a name with "-ian" on the end, you can safely assume it's a mode.

2) When you get a whole 'group' of them together, what are they called? (a scale? a mode?)

Don't have any idea what you mean. Each mode and scale is it's own identity.

3) Are there always seven of those aolian type things in a full group of them?

There are as many modes as they're are notes in a scale. Like the major scale has 7 notes so there are 7 modes.

Hope that helps man. Sorry bout getting off track, thought we answered those.

Originally posted by Digit

2) When you get a whole 'group' of them together, what are they called? (a scale? a mode?)

Okay, when you get a whole group of different modes together, it's called a lot of noise. Modes and scales are like that rectangle square rule: A scale is a mode, but a mode isn't one set scale. Modes are, as I said before, determined by the number of steps between each note therefore they cannot be combined simultaneously or it sounds terrible. You MUST understand this to understand modes. Let me break down further what I said before:

Aeolian (in Am just for the sake of ease):

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

A to B goes A-A#-B. that is known as a whole step. Then it goes B to C, which is B-C (B# and Cb don't exist). that is what's called a half step. And so on and so forth.

Each mode uses a specific set of steps, just as each scale uses a specific set of notes. Mixing two modes together at the same time is like mixing to scales in totally different keys at the same time. I can see almost no way to play to modes simultaneously except by coincidence, where the second mode is not noticed (Am and C scales to draw a comparison). Ok, I'm done, if I confused you (sorry if I did, my writing skills are awful) let me know. me