Singing and playing - how do you do it?

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardIf its not a typo, it doesn't make any sense... have you tried it recently? I think the result would be that you would not hear any sound at all. The signal chain is incorrect; the amp is not receiving any signal. I have three pedals. I hook them up normally. guitar in---out to pedal 2 in---out to pedal 3 in----out to amp in. Works fine. I think you must of had a unique pedal or something... it doesn't matter what the effect is... the normal signal flow is input to output. Any normal pedal that follows that will not work if you hook it up backwards.

Slipin Lizard

I know it makes no since and that's why I posted it, who would try it. While I can't speak for others that used peddles back in the 70's my peddles and the other guitar players peddles had to be hooked that way. I'm glad they have corrected that. But if you run across and old echoplex or phase shifter, they might still play by the old rules. At first it was maddening, all 3 peddles would work, but only using 2 at a time in any combo. So I called the store I bought them at, that's what they said and it's how they worked.

Hey Kasperow, A few beers always helps me get started, but it helps if you really love and know the songs well, and they have a meaning you can attach to them. I cant tell you an icon to press so you can sing and play a number of songs in a week, but for me it seems I just could one day, (but not without taking some time and effort) though it seemed an impossible thing before that. It starts with that one song, Patience is great song to start with for sure, if you can whistle the beginning while playing guitar that's a good start. How I learn, having learnt guitar parts, is listen to the song often while singing and playing along till you think you know it, then play the song in your head only as you as you try to recall and memorize the lyrics, take it line by line, verse by verse, chorus, etc., till you think you know it, then try same process while playing guitar, if you've got the guitar parts, the big thing is having lyrics memorized. Also you may try humming (or whistling) the vocal/melody parts while playing the guitar, and work the actual words and expressions in gradually. Another good thing is to play with a "patient" singer, and start with singing backup fills, chorus's and harmonies. The coordination thing should come together, if its going to happen, it's natural to some people, some have to work on it more, as well as the vocal skills themselves. Otherwise there are a lot of guitar players that just play guitar, and hook up with a good singer to gig.

Cheers

Originally Posted by: smokinjonHey Kasperow, A few beers always helps me get started, but it helps if you really love and know the songs well, and they have a meaning you can attach to them. I cant tell you an icon to press so you can sing and play a number of songs in a week, but for me it seems I just could one day, (but not without taking some time and effort) though it seemed an impossible thing before that. It starts with that one song, Patience is great song to start with for sure, if you can whistle the beginning while playing guitar that's a good start. How I learn, having learnt guitar parts, is listen to the song often while singing and playing along till you think you know it, then play the song in your head only as you as you try to recall and memorize the lyrics, take it line by line, verse by verse, chorus, etc., till you think you know it, then try same process while playing guitar, if you've got the guitar parts, the big thing is having lyrics memorized. Also you may try humming (or whistling) the vocal/melody parts while playing the guitar, and work the actual words and expressions in gradually. Another good thing is to play with a "patient" singer, and start with singing backup fills, chorus's and harmonies. The coordination thing should come together, if its going to happen, it's natural to some people, some have to work on it more, as well as the vocal skills themselves.

It seems the basics pretty much come down to "memorize the lyrics and the guitar-parts, and practice a lot". I've seen the same explanation some other places on the internet, only slightly different words. You did, however, add a few things I haven't seen anywhere else, mostly the part with starting with singing back-up and chorus.

Otherwise there are a lot of guitar players that just play guitar, and hook up with a good singer to gig.

Agreed. There are a lot of great guitarists who couldn't even sing if their life depended on it. However, for the purpose of this thread, the idea was to learn to sing and play simultaneously, so I could perform for friends and family. Once I actually manage to find a band, though it's going very slowly, I'm going to leave the singing to a vocalist, and maybe do back-up vocals on a few songs. However, getting a singer for family-gigs... not gonna be worth the effort and possibly money.

Just curious, but since the reason I created this thread is that I have a family-gig coming next Saturday, I'd like to know something I should have considered earlier... Does anyone have any suggestions for how to create a good set-list? I've watched a lot of concerts on YouTube (not a lot in real-life though... Going to see one next month, though), and in the majority of them, the bands use the same overall structure: Start with some upbeat songs, move on to a mix of fast and slow songs, then do some of their most popular songs, and finally end it with a sing-along or an iconic tune. Most times, they also add a solo or jam, though not always (GNR has 5 solos and 3 jams in the show from LA Forum on 21.12.11, while Deep Purple has maybe 1 solo).

Judging by this model, I believe it would be best to go by the following:

Whole Lotta Rosie
(Own Song)
La Grange
Patience
Without You
(Own Song)
Used To Love Her
Sweet Child O' Mine
Dream On
Knockin' On Heaven's Door

Encores: (if they want more, that is)
Sailing
Smoke On The Water
(Own Song)

That's how the set-list looks so far. I'll probably replace some stuff with a solo-segment or something, but I'd like some feedback on how to arrange the songs to create a better flow in the whole thing. Most of the stuff is covers, I know. It'll probably also sound a bit dry, being only a single guitarist with no band behind me, but those are issues the people I'm playing for are prepared to accept.

That seems like a good order.

Since you are new to this and not a seasoned player like, let's say Slash, you should take yourself into consideration of the setlist. Open up with something you can play in your sleep - the song that is easiest for you to play. For the next few songs, choose ones you can play easily as well. So now you are warmed up, feeling good and confident - now throw in one the songs that is challenging for you to play. Then an easy one...and so on. And don't save the most technical songs for the end - you may find your hands and arms start fatiguing and you won't be able to play as well as you normally would.

Kasperow,

Look like you have thought this through pretty well, I have nothing to add.

maggior: I'll try to take that into consideration while rehearsing (not practicing. that has a seperate time-slot :) ). I know that I'm nowhere near as experienced as Slash (or any of the other great guitarists, for that matter), so I did try to take that into consideration, which is why I chose to have Whole Lotta Rosie and La Grange first, since they're easy to play (barring their solos, which can be improvised), and they are pretty upbeat, so they should be good choices for opening the gig :)

After that, I purposefully took some slower songs, to let my fingers take it easy after some fast songs and soloing, and finally, I chose some classics I know they show know (unless they've lived under a rock. Knockin' is a perfect sing-along and I know they've at least heard Sweet Child, and quite likely also Dream On). And the two set-in-stone Encores, for if they want more, are their favorites amongst the songs in my repertoire (I chose Sailing and Smoke On The Water specifically because of that). The Encores need to, in my opinion, need to get some sort of special treatment, and thus, I chose some that I know they'll love.

haghj500: I'm actually pretty much just copying what works for others. I don't know yet how it'll go, since I've never played with a setlist before... I should probably consider printing out the setlist and having it placed so I can see it while playing... Would make it easier to remember the order of the songs :)

Sounds like you've really thought this through you've got it all covered! You are setting yourself up for success.

Originally Posted by: maggiorSounds like you've really thought this through you've got it all covered! You are setting yourself up for success.

Well, I've read that a gig is a gig. Doesn't matter if it's 6 people I know very well or 100 strangers. Sure, it may be more awesome to play in front of the 100 strangers, but playing for friends and family is a good way to get used to having an audience at all. So I might as well make the most of it, and give them a show worth remembering (and even if they don't, I'm sure I'll remember a gig I get to play on my 23rd birthday) :)

Damn right, a gig is a gig.

I had never considered myself having any "playing out" experience until a discussion with my brother in law. He lives in San Francisco and would perform with his acoustic guitar at open mics. I told him that was cool and I wish I could do something like that. He then pointed out that by me playing in our church chior, I had way more people listening to me play than he did. He had a point. Which comes back to what you said...a gig is a gig. You'll have more people listening to you play than most of us here I suspect.

I agree with your brother on that. Regardless of where you are or how many people you play for, it's still a gig. I'd actually wish my church offered that kind of opportunity. You should consider yourself lucky :)

I'm not quite sure I have more people listening to my playing than most people here, though. I typically have 5 people to play for. Sometimes a bit more, but that's only on special occasions. I'm also pretty sure that there are lots of people here who are better at playing guitar than me, so there might be a connection... Then again, I think everyone started out with small crowds to play for, before working their way up to sold-out arenas.

I think that one of the main reasons I'm not out there playing gigs at venues yet, is that I can't find a band that needs a Rhythm Guitarist. My goal is to become a great Lead Guitarist, but I'm willing to settle for Rhythm Guitar just to see if playing for others is really something I could see myself doing a lot of. And I am a bit better at playing Rhythm Guitar than Lead Guitar right now, if I have to admit it (and there are a few good Rhythm Guitarists as well. Izzy Stradlin and Keith Richards are tied for best in my opinion), so I would probably be best suited for Rhythm Guitar unless I can find other lower intermediate players to play with...

I just did a thorough rehearsal of my set-list, and it clocks in at little over an hour, though I might move Sweet Child down to the Encores, before Smoke, and then just play the parts I know in my sleep and try to seamlessly proceed into Smoke on the Water, and then let a jam or solo take over Sweet Child's spot... It might create a better flow in the whole gig, or it might not. Only one way to find out.

I know what you mean about it being frustrating, but you just have to practice practice practice and it will come. Try taking a song that you want to sing and just learning parts of it until you can do well and then add another part. I use cheat sheets. I have the words and music in front of me for many of the songs I do. My own I know by heart and a number of others, but the sheets keep me on track even if I don't have to concentrate on them.

Originally Posted by: KasperowIf there's one thing that baffles me and frequently annoys me a lot, it is how outrageously difficult it is to both play the guitar and sing at the same time, yet I've seen so many guitarists who can sing at the same time and make it look like it's no big deal. So what I wanna know is: What is the trick to playing and singing at the same time? And is there any way to learn to do it quickly? I'd prefer if it could be possible to learn before Saturday in two weeks, since I've been asked/forced to play a few songs for the family, and I've prepared a small set-list with a few mixed classics (and a single original piece, but they don't need to know yet), and it would be more fun for everyone if I could actually sing the songs too while playing them. So is there some short-cut, or will it take months to learn to do both things at the same time?

Kasperow,

Printing your set list is a good idea, though you may change the order as you put your guitar strap around your neck. Here is an idea I'll offer, print the song title then print the first 3 words or more of each verse under it. Maybe in a color or font size that will catch your eye.

Ever see someone forget the words while switching between the chores and the next verse? Cover yourself. Tape it some place you can get to it quick.

Happy Rockin 23rd to you.

Originally Posted by: haghj500Kasperow,

Printing your set list is a good idea, though you may change the order as you put your guitar strap around your neck. Here is an idea I'll offer, print the song title then print the first 3 words or more of each verse under it. Maybe in a color or font size that will catch your eye.

Ever see someone forget the words while switching between the chores and the next verse? Cover yourself. Tape it some place you can get to it quick.

Happy Rockin 23rd to you.

Thanks. I've got a feeling that things won't go as smooth as during rehearsal, once I actually start playing. Yeah, I've seen people who forget the words to songs. It's embarrassing. Especially if it's a song the crowd knows and loves.

I'm not 100% sure how to introduce my own songs though. I've never tried taking this kind of family gigs this seriously before. I suppose I could just say something like "This is a song I've been working on" and then start playing it. Either way, I'm going to try and enjoy the show as much as possible, even if they don't like the songs I've selected. I already know that there's at least one who doesn't like the general genre and style of music I play, but I'm not gonna compromise my own enjoyment just to please one person.

I did, however manage to sing while playing Patience yesterday, as well as Sailing, Without You, La Grange, Smoke On The Water and Knockin' on Heaven's Door (chorus), so I'm getting there. I can sing along to half the setlist, with the rest slowly coming along. At the current rate, I should be able to sing the whole setlist next Saturday.

Wow, that's awesome progress!! You must be working really hard on this - good for you! A great way to celebrate your 23rd birthday.

If you can, you might want to tuck an audio recroder away someplace. It could be fun to have an audio recording to look back on.

"I did, however manage to sing while playing Patience yesterday, as well as Sailing, Without You, La Grange, Smoke On The Water and Knockin' on Heaven's Door (chorus), so I'm getting there. I can sing along to half the setlist, with the rest slowly coming along. At the current rate, I should be able to sing the whole setlist next Saturday."

I was going to ask about that in my last post, cool I was thinking you should be starting to pick it up by now. Welcome to another level.

Well, I went through with the gig as planned, and it went pretty well, I'd say, aside from a couple screw-ups and general errors.

As planned, I started out by playing something simple, one of my own songs, just to warm up the hands. Then proceeded into "Whole Lotta Woman" and "La Grange", also as planned. After this, things went a bit off the track, as playing some calm songs wouldn't feel quite right, so I went ahead and played some more up-beat songs, just to keep people satisfied (I imagine it'll be like that when I start playing for larger, unknown audiences too...). After a few up-beat tracks, I needed to rest my fingers a bit, so I went and grabbed my acoustic guitar, and sort of forced the whole feel down (and managed to pull off a short acoustic set pretty well...).

Then, three songs later, I went back to the Les Paul, and went into two consecutive GNR-songs ("Used To Love Her" and "Knockin' On Heaven's Door"). Much to my surprise (and pleasure), I didn't have to sing at all to "Knockin'". One of my friends, whom I was playing for, immediately recognized the song by the intro, ran up to me and took over Lead Vocals for the rest of the gig, though he isn't the best vocalist I've ever heard. Doesn't matter though, since he managed to get the others to sing along too, which is more important in this case.

"Knockin'" ended pretty well, with a small applause and everything. My friend asked me if I had more songs I wanted to play, that he could sing on, and I said I had two encores. I wasn't sure if he knew them, though, but I expected it, since we're both big fans of GNR and Deep Purple. And lo and behold. I started playing the intro to "Sweet Child O' Mine", and he took care of the vocal lines (tuned an octave or two down compared to the original record, but who cares. It was all for fun, nothing more). Then, after a short break (after only playing half of "Sweet Child", since that's all I know of it, but they wanted to hear it anyway...), I went on and, without letting the "singer" know, I burst into the probably most iconic riff of all time: "Smoke On The Water". I can honestly say I never intended it as a sing-along, unlike "Knockin'", but... it became one anyway... This resulted in the song becoming a bit longer than expected too, before the neighbors complained and we had to call it a night...

As far as I can tell from the talk afterwards, though, it looks like we might just be doing something like this again in Summer. I believe that'll be the next time the crazy bunch will be gathered, so if this friend who handled Lead Vocals on the last few songs can be there, it can potentially become very fun to play again this Summer... With a slightly bigger audience available, even!

I'm not sure, but if he's interested in playing in a band, I may just have found a singer and a pianist at the same time... I should ask him about that when I get the chance... Could be awesome if he's interested. I also heard some talking earlier that my my brother thinks it would be cool to learn to play the guitar too, but he doesn't want to because he can't afford all the gear he thinks he'll need (and apparently borrowing the gear needed to get started is out of the question...). I could easily let him borrow some inexpensive gear, plug it all in and teach him the fundamentals of playing Rhythm Guitar, and I'd even do it for free if that's what it would take to get him to at least give it a shot... Who knows, if I could teach him how to play Rhythm Guitar, I'd just need two more people to handle drums and bass, and I could potentially have a whole band :)

Cool, sounds like a great gig. That was a great idea to turn songs into sing a longs, being family and all. Sounds like this singer already has a few tricks of the trade, he might make a good front man.

Planning is a great and needed thing for a gig, but its always fun to see how it changes as you go. Acoustic set was a good idea to slow things down.

Thanks for the update.

Yeah, it was a great gig (if we ignore the one time I accidentally yanked out the cord just before the last bar of a song). I agree that my friend seems to know a few things about being a frontman, though he has zero band experience. I'll seriously have to ask him if he wants to start a classic rock band together. It would be a shame to let his skills as a public speaker, front man and pianist go to waste, if he's up for it.

I actually only intended to make "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" a sing-along, since I knew everyone would know it (or at least the chorus), and it's the kind of song that's just begging to be played as a sing along. "Smoke On The Water" was far more unintentional, since I didn't even know if anyone knew the song's lyrics. I also didn't know that I would have a singer for the last 3 songs, especially not a singer who managed to get them to sing along to the last chorus so we made the song go on for a minute or two.

Now I'm just going to prepare for next time, so I can play even better (and hopefully not knock over a glass of cola and yank out my cable...). I think next time might even be outdoors, if the weather allows it. If that's the case, I should also consider warning the neighbors so they don't complain again... I'm gonna have to try writing a few more songs and finish the ones I'm already working on, so I can keep going for a bit longer. I also need to learn a few more covers, though, so I can play some songs they might already know, though I don't know which songs they already know... And hopefully, my singing friend will be there again, but I shouldn't expect it.

At least I learned something from playing this little gig (okay, it lasted an hour. I wouldn't call that 'little'). It's good to have a set list, but I shouldn't expect to follow it 100%. And even more importantly: Unexpected things can happen. With those things in mind, I'll focus on becoming better for next time. If I keep this up, I might just one day end up playing actual paying gigs :)