God does exist

I would bet that being the Son of God and all, he could pretty much play air guitar and get the most amazing music you've ever heard out of it. :)

Originally Posted by: HammurabiNonsense, he would go custom. He was the son of a carpenter, you know.

Lol, you think a guy who makes furniture for IKEA could just as easily work for Martin? I doubt it.
Anyway, about God.
Of the two foremost theories that seek to explain our existence, creation by a supreme being and the big bang stuff; even if I was a neutral observer, I think it's more stupid to believe in an accident that is the big bang and evolution theory than it is stupid to believe in some supreme "god". To look at the cosmos, and the diversity of life, and the question of how reproduction takes place, how the blue print of how you'r gonna look like when you grow up is stored in 46 chromosomes, and attribute that kind of a system to "an accident", and to have someone else attribute it to a god he cannot explain, I think I chose to go with the god I can't explain. Makes more sense to me that way.
I try not to place too much emphasis on stuff relating to religious orientation, coz a lot of that has a lot to do with how we're raised. Most people raised in christian families are christians, in muslim families are muslim, and so on and so forth. Rather than think about how stupid it is to worship a cow, I think to myself, "...wait a sec David, if YOU were born and raised in India, you'd probably be doing the exact same thing, so don't feel too clever, OK?..."
I subscribe to the christian version of events, because that is what I was taught. It's not because I know better, it's what I was taught, and I believe in God and Jesus and the whole thing completely. However, sometimes I feel that seeing as virtually all religions have a supreme being, it's the one and the same being we all worship. Maybe we are right and others are wrong. I dunno about that. By nature, human beings tend to assume their own version of events to be the most correct, so yes, I also think that the bible version fo stuff is the most correct.
If in the end, if there's an "end", the true version of things will become known, then it will become known. If you believe that those who don't believe in what your god says will be punished by your god for their transgression, then it will come to pass. And if it turns out the atheists are the ones who knew it all along, that too will be. If there's a plan that God had for the world, I;m sure it will come to be. If this was just a development of the big bang, and when we die that's the end of it, then that's the way it is.
If you come across any religious teachings that teach positive stuff, then I'm sure there's something to be learnt there. Tolerate other people. If a man in a funny coloured robe and a beard touching the ground tells me to be kind to my neighbours, how can I tell him he is wrong. If he tells me to drink a cow's urine coz it's holy, that's where I draw the line. If a Muslim teracher tells me to help an orphan, I can't tell him he is wrong, just coz I'm not muslim. But if he tells me to stone a woman who has a child out of wedlock because that's what the Koran says, well, let's just say I'll stop short of telling him to stuff his K up you know what.
That's how I see it.

Originally Posted by: kingdavid... Of the two foremost theories that seek to explain our existence, creation by a supreme being and the big bang stuff...

[font=trebuchet ms]They aren't all that distinct, and they're getting closer all the time. The most telling scientific discovery was that it requires energy to impose order on the inherently chaotic nature of the universe. This means that where there is order there is, and has been, energy directed to some purpose. Presumably by some guiding intelligence? Hmmm...

There are some closed minds on any 'side' of the issues, but I am confident that it will all be resolved. Eventually.

In the meantime, we all have more immediate 'local' issues to attend to.[/font]

I'd promised myself I'd never worship for 2 reasons.
1. Just in case there is a god - to me that just seems hollow
2. Out of fear of what will happen if I don't - that's not faith, that's fear and no one should worship something they're afraid of.

Sad to say, I can't bring myself to follow any religious deity. I think too much about it and I consider all the possibilites that there is a god and compare it with all the facts that state there isn't and I never come up with an answer. I've read through parts of the bible and I couldn't make out two bits of it. I won't bull**** anyone, I'm a mental wreck and I've turned to religion multiple times for any kind of peace of mind, but still nothing. I turn to psychology books to at least try to understand why I am the way I am and I find answers (or symptoms as the books put it). And even then, I still don't understand anything. There's way too much to digest and cramming religion into every nook and cranny just makes it harder because you've got something that billions of people follow, but hold no proof. I remember when I went to church as a child and I remember their methods of teaching. It was strikingly similar to brainwashing hypocrisy. If there's a god, I hope he forgives me for my transgression, but at this point in my life, it feels right to not follow religion.

Oh, and regarding that previous debate I was involved in. Yeah, I didn't actually know what you believed in dude, I was partially going as the devil's advocate. No hard feelings.

Well, this is a debate that no one can win. The best you can hope for is a draw. One of the issues that I have with organized religon is that it [U]can be [/U]very exclusionary and that is a very, very dangerous thing. I have been at odds with my own faith over things like that. For example, alternative lifestyles. The church says no way. But you know what Jesus said about it?

Nothing. Not a single word.

So why then does the church take the position that people who practice this lifestyle are doomed and can never be loved by God? It makes no sense to me. And there are hundreds of other issues like this.

But they also preach a religious dogma, philosophy if you will, that calls for us to be kind to others, to help others and to love one another. That's a good thing. Regardless of how the message is brought out and by whom, it's good stuff.

Now I believe in a soverign diety and I'll tell you why. Oh sure, I was raised that way, I read the bible, I attended church camp...etc. But I like to think for myself so I set out to find God. I wanted to know for myself and not based on something someone else told me. I read a lot of religious materials, talked to a lot of people...etc and still nothing. Then one night, I took a hike into the woods. I walked for a while and came to a clearing. I laid down on my back and stared up at the night sky through the canopy in forest cieling. There wasn't a cloud in the sky and I could see what felt like to the very edge of the universe. I asked myself one question; "Do I really and truly believe that this, all of this just happened?" And after thinking about it for a while, I came to the conclusion that there is simply no way that the vastness of the universe or the tiny intricities in the human body just happened. That settled it for me. I have never doubted it from that point on.

Now I cannot prove the existence of God to anyone any more than anyone else can prove to me that true love exists. You really have to take both on faith. You can't hold either one in your hands and you can't buy either one at the local Kmart. It comes down to faith.

It's clear to me that everyone who has posted to this thread is intelligent and articulate about their positions. No one is right and no one is wrong. Relgious belief is an intensely personal issue and one that each and every person has to decide for themselves.

Okay. That's enough out of the likes of me...I hope I didn't offend. I just wanted to throw my two cents in. So I will now hop down from my soap box and continue on my way... :D

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsI think too much about it and I consider all the possibilites that there is a god and compare it with all the facts that state there isn't and I never come up with an answer.

There isn't a single fact that states or proves that there is no "God."

Facts that show that The Bible or any other religious text isn't 100% true or has logical fallicies? Sure. But the possibility of what we would call "God" cannot be disproven scientifically and not a signle credible scientist will say otherwise.

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovThe possibility of what we would call "God" cannot be disproven scientifically and not a single credible scientist will say otherwise.

The possibility that invisible unicorns are shagging behind me cannot be disproven scientifically, but it would be pretty retarded of me to believe that such a thing is happening without evidence.

Where is the evidence of god?

Originally Posted by: HammurabiWhere is the evidence of god?

This is an eternal question that all must answer/question for himself. This brings up to mind the old philosophy story of the watch on the beach. Yet I'll change it somewhat to suit our community here.

A man questioning the existence of God finds a fine guitar washed up on the beach. There are no brand names, or any inscriptions on it, but nevertheless he knows with certainty that it was made with great care by a skilled luthier somewhere. Of course he can't prove it, and has no idea who actually made it, but with all it's intricate parts and great detail, he has no doubt that it is handmade with purpose, as opposed to just some accidental conglomerate of seashells that function. The point here is obvious.

I find no problem in having a scientific viewpoint along with sprituality. Yet it's absurd when knowledge is resisted because it doesn't fit within the dogma of the day. Galileo shocked the church with his "theories" and paid with his life. Einstein believed in God. As always, all I'm preaching is "keep an open mind". In my mind big-bang, evolution, and any other theory that is heavily supported by evidence does not diminish the role of a creator and his ever fascinating, awesome creation.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiThere is no point. Remember, I'm an atheist. I don't have to justify anything about god.

Yes you do. You have to justify to yourself why he doesn't exist.

dude, if Jesus played guitar, he'd probably play a 12-string acoustic... just cause that's what I saw this jewish rabbi playing... but seriously, we all know he'd play a harp, not a guitar.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiThe possibility that invisible unicorns are shagging behind me cannot be disproven scientifically, but it would be pretty retarded of me to believe that such a thing is happening without evidence.

Where is the evidence of god?[/QUOTE]
Well, without even trying to look for evidence...

[QUOTE=Lordathestrings][font=trebuchet ms]The most telling scientific discovery was that it requires energy to impose order on the inherently chaotic nature of the universe. This means that where there is order there is, and has been, energy directed to some purpose. Presumably by some guiding intelligence? Hmmm...[/font]

The most telling scientific discovery was that it requires energy to impose order on the inherently chaotic nature of the universe. This means that where there is order there is, and has been, energy directed to some purpose. Presumably by some guiding intelligence? Hmmm...

Perhaps not by guiding intelligence. That's not evidence.

Even if it were absolute proof that atheism were wrong it would not support christianity any more than it would support Islam, Hinduism, Jinja Honcho, or any other religion. Proof of spiritual influence is nowhere near proof of god.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiThe possibility that invisible unicorns are shagging behind me cannot be disproven scientifically, but it would be pretty retarded of me to believe that such a thing is happening without evidence.

Where is the evidence of god?

I'm agnostic... I've never met 'God' or 'Allah' or whoever it may be, and I guess I'll believe in him/her if/when I meet them... the way I see it, if you follow a particular religion, chances are you'll be screwed when the 'God' you meet at the pearly gates or whatever isn't the one you've been talking to for 50 years.

The issue for me is Faith - in as far as I don't have any really in many things.

If I said I was going to give you $1 million tomorrow, would you believe me? probably not until you had the cash in your hand, being as I'm just some dude on a message board. However, you also wouldn't know for sure I was lying until tomorrow came, and you didn't get your cash, so you wouldn't call me a liar until you were sure, right?

It amazes me that a human brain, with it's need for reason and understanding, can so easily accept or reject religion or the idea of omnipotent and omnipresent beings without any evidence one way or the other.

What's even more amazing to me is that I could be a Fender man, while you like Gibson, and we could still have a laugh without ripping each other apart. Why should personal beliefs be any different? :confused:

Hammurabi - while you're asking for proof of God's existence, can I ask where your proof is that God does not exist?

Originally Posted by: zreynoldspWhat's even more amazing to me is that I could be a Fender man, while you like Gibson, and we could still have a laugh without ripping each other apart. Why should personal beliefs be any different? :confused:

They shouldn't, but they are and always have been.

Hammurabi - while you're asking for proof of God's existence, can I ask where your proof is that God does not exist?

You could, but the logical burden of proof is on christianity. Even if it were on me it's easy to make an argument from a lack of evidence. For example, if jesus existed and performed miracles then there would clearly be historical proof of it. However, there are no even halfway reliable sources supporting that any such man ever existed except one that very clearly contradicts the bible as to when he would have lived. Therefore the assertion that Jesus never existed is a reasonable claim. If jesus never lived then the bible is at severe fault and there is no basis for christianity except tradition, which isn't convincing.

One could also make the claim that christianity's sources are a joke. For example, look at early Judaism (christianity's daddy). Anyone who has ever studied Chaldean mythology can tell you the entire first part of Genesis (Eden, man from dust, the great flood, etc) was popular mythology as early as two thousand years before the torah was written. In other words, the very foundation of the modern belief in god was stolen from other religions. Satan wasn't even originally in judaism or christianity, he was the Persian god Shaitan (literally translates to 'adversary'), which was basically a knockoff of Egypt's god Set/h. The character Jesus is also nothing more than a knockoff of several similar dieties. Look up Attis of Phrygia, Dionysus/Bacchus, Krishna, Zoroaster/Zarathustra, and Mithra.

I understand that modern Christianity has (Ahem) 'borrowed' a fair bit from other established religions, as well as using pagan festivals as days of celebration. All in an attempt to maximise it's appeal / acceptability... but that doesn't necessarily make it all a big lie. And we don't have to limit this to Christianity - you're an atheist, so there is no God regardless of which team he supports... ;)

You've missed what I was getting at a bit - I don't consider the lack of evidence that God exists to be sufficient proof that 'it' doesn't. What I was driving at is that I don't believe anyone can really be an atheist, because none of us really know the 'truth'.

Believers have their faith in God to rely on, agnostics hold that we cannot know the truth, at least at the moment. What I'd like to see is an argument from an atheist which can stand alone, and does not solely rely on questioning the reliability of the bible...

To be clear, I neither agree not disagree with you. but would be interested in seeing the substance of your thinking.

About the whole tobacco farmer/smoker thing.... I didn't read all the rest of the replies but to add light to that point of view I would like to say that Tobacco in its natural state isn't cancerous. The chemicals the cigarette companies put in the cigarettes are what cause the cancer...

Originally Posted by: Hammurabi

The most telling scientific discovery was that it requires energy to impose order on the inherently chaotic nature of the universe. This means that where there is order there is, and has been, energy directed to some purpose. Presumably by some guiding intelligence? Hmmm...

Perhaps not by guiding intelligence. That's not evidence.[/quote]Yes, it is evidence. What it is not is proof.

Some scientists are theorizing that this means our universe could have been created as an experiment by scientists in another universe. It turns out, it wouldn't take much energy to set the parameters of and then create this universe.



[QUOTE=Hammurabi]Even if it were absolute proof that atheism were wrong it would not support christianity any more than it would support Islam, Hinduism, Jinja Honcho, or any other religion.

Where did I say that it would?

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovWhere did I say that it would?

When you said it was evidence of god rather than simply suggestive of an undetermined influence that may or may not even be spiritual in nature.

Some scientists are theorizing that this means our universe could have been created as an experiment by scientists in another universe. It turns out, it wouldn't take much energy to set the parameters of and then create this universe.

What interests me most about that theory is the thought of how one could monitor the results of such an experiment.

i think this thread will be around long enough to find out if God really excists. Or at least until robot prostitutes are cheap.

Originally Posted by: Cryptic Excretions...Out of fear of what will happen if I don't - that's not faith, that's fear and no one should worship something they're afraid of...

My mom died on a Sunday morning, at about 5.30. The previous saturday, my auntie, a staunchly born again christian, had come to see my mum in the company of one of her friends(auntie's), another equally staunch one. So they'd been praying by her bed for like the whole day. Then at around 4.30 in the afternoon, she came round from her coma-like condition, talked to them, blah blah blah. They impressed on her to get saved, and I'm told she said yes, then slipped back into the coma thing. She never came back, and eventually went away.
Now, that was not true salvation, that was just fear of the unknown. And really realising that you're not gonna make it. And fools in my family have the guts to claim she got saved. Just how dumb do you suppose God is? I know we're all gonna die, but thinking about what she went through in those moments hurts me a lot. And to think that her own family aggravated the situation by all that "GET SAVED!! THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE!!" Really telling her that they've given up on her. It's like the call made when you'r boarding a plane or something, or you're being executed. I was in boarding school at the time, they only told me after the fact.
When I think about these things, it hurts to think about the things people put those who are dying through, like bringing some preacher man to get you to repent and all that ****. I swear if I'm ever terminally ill and someone tries to preach to me I'll tell them to go **** themselves and kick them out of the hospital ward or something. And if I'm about to be executed for killing someone, and right before the chamber they bring this preist to recite some stuff and ****, I'll ,kill him as well. I remember watching this Western about some horse thieves who were about to be hanged, and one of them is still insisting he's not guilty, and when he's given the last chance, he's asking someone to take care of his family, another one is so messed he cant' say anything, and the third just says "...get the hell on with it goddammit!..." I've never laughed that hard. Way to go.
Another neoghbour of mine was dying from HIV. He claimed he was born again, was not afraid to die, was on his way to heaven, was always reading the bible and all that ****. But you could see the fear in his eyes. He was very very afraid. I felt for him.
I'm not afraid of the concept of dying; what kinda scares me is the pain prospect and stuff. But all that eternity stuff and hell and what have you? If it's gonna happen it's gonna happen. And I'm sure God would want me to do as he says not because I'm afraid of him, but because I realise and accept it's the right thing.