God does exist

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonreally? Because it sounded EXACTLY the same.

No, you just misunderstand my argument.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiNo, you just misunderstand my argument.

Nope, I understand it.

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonNope, I understand it.

Not if you think it's anything like the relationship between farmers and smokers.

I suppose it would be easier to just say the point of my argument- omniscience is mutually exclusive with free will. This is crippling to a theology that claims both an omnipotent god and damnation by one's decisions.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiNot if you think it's anything like the relationship between farmers and smokers.

There is if the farmer is harvesting tobacoo knowing that it's going to be used for cigarettes that people smoke and get cancer from. And what else is a tobacoo crop going to end up as? So all farmers that grow tobacoo know what it's for.

The difference is tobacco farmers have no control over who smokes or who among the smokers will get cancer.

God, by omniscience, would know before creation both of those and, by creating the universe in the manner it was created, create the inevitability of who would and would not smoke as well as who would and would not get cancer.

Originally Posted by: elklanderccMabey the gods that the Romans/Greeks/Amer Indians believed in are "helpers" of god, supreme disiples.

Just to clarify...almost all American Indians believe(d) in a single "god". True their conception was far different than ours, but still it was "The Great Spirit". Yet they found a unity within all of nature, being from this Great Spirit, thus forming a respect for things from a rock to a deer. So basically everything was this spirit manifest in different forms.

I'd have to go with Jolly on this one.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiThe difference is tobacco farmers have no control over who smokes or who among the smokers will get cancer.

God, by omniscience, would know before creation both of those and, by creating the universe in the manner it was created, create the inevitability of who would and would not smoke as well as who would and would not get cancer.

If you were God then why would you create people if you were just going to control them? Say someone's about to do something wrong, well then God chimes in and keeps that from happening. That's not life, that's manipulation. If God gave us life then he gave us the option to make a decision. There's a lot of pain in the world, I won't deny that, but there are also a lot of lessons in the world. A lot of options. Yeah, God might be able to predict it all and prevent it, but how can someone learn from their mistakes if there's someone/something keeping us from being able to have the opportunity to experience something and really learn from it? Nothing ever beats a good hands on experience to teach someone something so why protect someone from themself? Some people learn, some don't. And if God's manipulating us then I don't think he has any right to send any of us to hell because he should've just made us all have total faith in him from the get go. He'd be making us blasphem him all along and that is his fault. However, if he created us and is letting us live our own lives as we see fit, with or without faith, smoking or nonsmoking, then we're actually living and deserve whatever we get post-mortality.

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsIf you were God then why would you create people if you were just going to control them?

Why else?

Say someone's about to do something wrong, well then God chimes in and keeps that from happening. That's not life, that's manipulation.

My argument has no relation to the issue of divine intervention.

If God gave us life then he gave us the option to make a decision.

Wrong. Omniscience is mutually exclusive with free will, and even if it weren't life is no assurance of free will.

There's a lot of pain in the world, I won't deny that, but there are also a lot of lessons in the world. A lot of options. Yeah, God might be able to predict it all and prevent it, but how can someone learn from their mistakes if there's someone/something keeping us from being able to have the opportunity to experience something and really learn from it? Nothing ever beats a good hands on experience to teach someone something so why protect someone from themself? Some people learn, some don't.

You misunderstand my argument. Who said anything about preventing anything? God is not at fault for not stopping evil but for setting its clockwork in motion with the knowledge of what would happen and the knowledge that without setting it in motion nothing else ever would.

And if God's manipulating us then I don't think he has any right to send any of us to hell because he should've just made us all have total faith in him from the get go. He'd be making us blasphem him all along and that is his fault.

Manipulation is a bad word to use. If god is omniscient he doesn't change our lives as they progress, they were planned from the start. And yes, an absense of free will is an absense of accountability.

However, if he created us and is letting us live our own lives as we see fit, with or without faith, smoking or nonsmoking, then we're actually living and deserve whatever we get post-mortality.

No, because he knew before creation what we would do with our lives as we saw fit, with or without faith, smoking or nonsmoking, and what would happen to us after death. Because of this knowledge creation is reduced to simple clockwork.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiWhy else?[/Quote]
See what happens? Being an eternal being's got to get boring so why not create a world to act as a television. Something to craft and something to work with. Make it and rather than control it, just point at a suggested direction to go.

Originally Posted by: Hammurabi
My argument has no relation to the issue of divine intervention.[/QUOTE]
You missed the point. If we're about to do something it's because God made us do it and that's final. So we've got no say in what we do because God's always there to make us do what he wants us to do, from day one. The relation to divine intervention is there.

Originally Posted by: Hammurabi
Wrong. Omniscience is mutually exclusive with free will, and even if it weren't life is no assurance of free will. [/QUOTE]
Aren't you making an assumption that we all believe in omniscience? Maybe God would know what is going to happen if we take a certain path, but also what would happen if we took a different path. Just because there's no assurance of free will doesn't mean there's no assurance that there is no free will.

[QUOTE=Hammurabi]
You misunderstand my argument. Who said anything about preventing anything? God is not at fault for not stopping evil but for setting its clockwork in motion with the knowledge of what would happen and the knowledge that without setting it in motion nothing else ever would.

No, I hear your argument loud and clear, but the thing is that I don't believe in fate. So for me to believe in a predetermined, omniscientific path would be hypocrisy. And here I ask you again, what's the point of setting such a cycle knowing exactly what's going to happen? "Weeee, I sure am happy I made this entire planet full of drones that do exactly what I made them do. I tell you what, this predetermined lifestyle is so full of surprises," said God.

[QUOTE=Hammurabi]
Manipulation is a bad word to use. If god is omniscient he doesn't change our lives as they progress, they were planned from the start. And yes, an absense of free will is an absense of accountability.

Why's manipulation a bad word? If our entire lives are mapped out from the beginning then there's no way to avoid anything and thus we've been placed on a single direction rail that will lead us where we go whether we like it or not. Destined or damned. And omniscience is a bad word because it makes things sound like there's such a thing as fate (which I don't believe in) and there's no point in having faith or even bothering to care about anything if we're going where we go whether we like it or not.

[QUOTE=Hammurabi]
No, because he knew before creation what we would do with our lives as we saw fit, with or without faith, smoking or nonsmoking, and what would happen to us after death. Because of this knowledge creation is reduced to simple clockwork.

So there's really no point in life because we're all just living in a drone-like world where we can't actually control what we do because we're bound to some cycle of events that causes us to live our monotonous, day-in, day-out lifestyle in which we deal with the same drones every day so that we can participate in some rat race that really doesn't matter? Why don't we just kill ourselves and get to the point if that's the case? Personally, I'd rather be dead than living in some world where I don't get any say in what I do. I didn't ask to be born so the least the gods can do is let me live my own life. That'd be pretty shallow and malevolant of any god to force me (I'm an illegitimate child by the way) into this world so I can just be pushed around as they see fit only to die and get nothing to say about it. They deserve the blasphemy if that's the case. It's all a sick joke and I say let's have at it with the armageddon and get to the point.

And here I ask you again, what's the point of setting such a cycle knowing exactly what's going to happen?

There is no point. Remember, I'm an atheist. I don't have to justify anything about god.

Originally Posted by: R. ShackleferdJust to clarify...almost all American Indians believe(d) in a single "god". True their conception was far different than ours, but still it was "The Great Spirit". Yet they found a unity within all of nature, being from this Great Spirit, thus forming a respect for things from a rock to a deer. So basically everything was this spirit manifest in different forms.

This type of religion is known as Animism and most closely resembles my own spiritual beliefs. I've also been getting into Taoism lately as well, which completely jives with Animism. I believe in the interconnectedness of all things in the universe, but as far as a conscious higher being, pulling the puppet strings; no way José.

Originally Posted by: HammurabiThere is no point. Remember, I'm an atheist. I don't have to justify anything about god.

I have no idea where the entire previous debate was going. I guess I just find that some things are tethered to god and religion in a bit of a rash manner and more consideration should be taken. Granted I'm no saint and I don't mean to tell you to have more faith as I should probably work on my own level of faith before I worry about someone else, but I dunno, I've lost my train of thought.

Originally Posted by: LeedoggI've also been getting into Taoism lately as well, which completely jives with Animism.

Taoism pretty much jives with anything.

It's funny to see certain "evangelical" types start to get all bent out of shape when you bring it up, though -- not realizing that you're talking about a philosophy that can be applied just as easily to Christianity as anything rather than a religion in and of itself.

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovTaoism pretty much jives with anything.

It's funny to see certain "evangelical" types start to get all bent out of shape when you bring it up, though -- not realizing that you're talking about a philosophy that can be applied just as easily to Christianity as anything rather than a religion in and of itself.

Exactly. When I began to read some Taoist philosophies I began to realize that I had always been a Taoist before I even knew what it meant.

This is a touchy subject for some. I’m an atheist, but do not oppose those who do believe.. I have found out that strong believers (some) will judge you if you don’t believe. Religious people can be very close minded and hypocritical as well. I think having spiritual beliefs of some sort is a healthy way of living. Everyone needs something to believe in. But from my opinion ( which might mean nothing to you) God is not someone to put the blame on. People say “if God exist then why is there so much suffering in the world.” But I guess it is easier to use something or someone else for a scapegoat for what is going on in the world.

-If I offended I apologize, like I said it is a touchy subject. This does not apply to all believers or nonbelievers.

Go Taoism! I know my input is always so deep.

if jesus played guitar you bet your ass it would be a fender strat.

Nonsense, he would go custom. He was the son of a carpenter, you know.

fine... a custom fender strat. and he would play it through a twin reverb. Jimi Hendrix would still kick his ass though.