Should i take lessons???

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Senior Member

Joined: 06/22/00

Posts: 207

Bdim in key of C?

B7major isn't in the key of C. In fact, there exists no chord called B7major. B7 is a chord, so is B major, B7 major isn't a name commonly used to refer to any chord. Is B dim in the key of C? Yes and no, but it's safer to say know. A B diminished triad exists in the key of C, but often when we say that we have a diminished chord we mean a fully diminished chord (spelled 1, b3, b5, bb7.) Since the B chord in the key of C is only half diminished (or minor 7 b5 chord) i don't like saying that there is a B diminished chord in the key of C, even though if we look at only the triads it's correct.
I think it's more useful to look at the 7th chords in a given key than the triads, because it gives you a more complete understanding of diatonic harmony. I won't list them here but I know that I have listed them in the past on this site, and so have many others. You can scroll through old questions to find them.

#11

Bdim in key of C?

B7major isn't in the key of C. In fact, there exists no chord called B7major. B7 is a chord, so is B major, B7 major isn't a name commonly used to refer to any chord. Is B dim in the key of C? Yes and no, but it's safer to say know. A B diminished triad exists in the key of C, but often when we say that we have a diminished chord we mean a fully diminished chord (spelled 1, b3, b5, bb7.) Since the B chord in the key of C is only half diminished (or minor 7 b5 chord) i don't like saying that there is a B diminished chord in the key of C, even though if we look at only the triads it's correct.
I think it's more useful to look at the 7th chords in a given key than the triads, because it gives you a more complete understanding of diatonic harmony. I won't list them here but I know that I have listed them in the past on this site, and so have many others. You can scroll through old questions to find them.

New Member

Joined: 01/10/01

Posts: 28

B7th

Luigi;

Again you corrected me on a miscommunicated topic. Thanks!
In my haste, I didn't do my math correctly. I stand corrected.

Your note points out to me that the harmonized 7th in the key of C which is spelled B D F shows the interval of a minor third + minor third.
or a 1 b3 b5

Thanks for your explaination on the full diminished vs. the half, I had always wondered what half-diminished meant.

So let me ask this:
What are the chord names of:
of the 1 b3 b5 - usually called diminished?
and the 1 b3 b5 7 - half dimininshed?
and the 1 b3 b5 b7 - ?
and the 1 b3 b5 bb7 - full diminished?

#12

B7th

Luigi;

Again you corrected me on a miscommunicated topic. Thanks!
In my haste, I didn't do my math correctly. I stand corrected.

Your note points out to me that the harmonized 7th in the key of C which is spelled B D F shows the interval of a minor third + minor third.
or a 1 b3 b5

Thanks for your explaination on the full diminished vs. the half, I had always wondered what half-diminished meant.

So let me ask this:
What are the chord names of:
of the 1 b3 b5 - usually called diminished?
and the 1 b3 b5 7 - half dimininshed?
and the 1 b3 b5 b7 - ?
and the 1 b3 b5 bb7 - full diminished?

Senior Member

Joined: 06/22/00

Posts: 207

"of the 1 b3 b5 - usually called diminished?
and the 1 b3 b5 7 - half dimininshed?
and the 1 b3 b5 b7 - ?
and the 1 b3 b5 bb7 - full diminished?"

1 b3 b5 is a diminished triad. I'm used to jazz, where it almost never comes up (you have some indication of the seventh.) You could call it diminished, but I don't like to because to me that assumes that you have the bb7. I suppose it doesn't technically assume that, (you have to write in the dim7 for it to mean that) so you could just call it diminished.
1 b3 b5 7 isn't a chord you see a lot. I've never come across it. Putting a major7 on top of a diminished triad is a strange sound. I suppose it would be a min/maj7b5 chord? Best name I can think of (the min/maj7 chord is the same chord with a perfect fifth, so if you flat the 5, I suppose that is what it would be called.) Don't worry about this one, you'll probably never see it written out.
1 b3 b5 b7. This is a half diminished chord, more commonly called a m7b5 chord. It is what you get when you put a minor 7th on top of a diminished triad. It is a diatonic chord; it is built from the seventh degree of any major key. Half diminished as in diminished triad, but not a diminished 7th. It comes up most often in jazz when you have a ii V i in a minor key. (i.e. Dm7b5, G7, Cm7.)
1 b3 b5 bb7. This is a diminished 7 chord. While you can think of it in terms of its degrees (as written above, maybe easier to think 1 b3 b5 6) it also makes sense to think of it as a stack of minor thirds. The chord is built by taking minor thirds and stacking them on top of each other. For this reason, A diminished is the same as C diminished is the same as Eb diminished; the notes repeat every minor third. It is diatonic to no key. This one comes up a lot, so you should be used to it. It can be a passing chord, because a diminished chord always wants to resolve upwards a half step, so you can approach any chord with a diminished chord a half step below. (instead of just playing C minor, you might play B dim7, then C minor) It is also sometimes used to connect two chords a whole step apart by placing a dim7 chord between them, even if the movement is descending (instead of Dm7, Cm7, you have Dm7 Dbdim7, Cm7.) You can use it to make your own progressions more interesting, and soloing over it is fun and wierd sounding. It's a good chord to be familiar with.

#13

"of the 1 b3 b5 - usually called diminished?
and the 1 b3 b5 7 - half dimininshed?
and the 1 b3 b5 b7 - ?
and the 1 b3 b5 bb7 - full diminished?"

1 b3 b5 is a diminished triad. I'm used to jazz, where it almost never comes up (you have some indication of the seventh.) You could call it diminished, but I don't like to because to me that assumes that you have the bb7. I suppose it doesn't technically assume that, (you have to write in the dim7 for it to mean that) so you could just call it diminished.
1 b3 b5 7 isn't a chord you see a lot. I've never come across it. Putting a major7 on top of a diminished triad is a strange sound. I suppose it would be a min/maj7b5 chord? Best name I can think of (the min/maj7 chord is the same chord with a perfect fifth, so if you flat the 5, I suppose that is what it would be called.) Don't worry about this one, you'll probably never see it written out.
1 b3 b5 b7. This is a half diminished chord, more commonly called a m7b5 chord. It is what you get when you put a minor 7th on top of a diminished triad. It is a diatonic chord; it is built from the seventh degree of any major key. Half diminished as in diminished triad, but not a diminished 7th. It comes up most often in jazz when you have a ii V i in a minor key. (i.e. Dm7b5, G7, Cm7.)
1 b3 b5 bb7. This is a diminished 7 chord. While you can think of it in terms of its degrees (as written above, maybe easier to think 1 b3 b5 6) it also makes sense to think of it as a stack of minor thirds. The chord is built by taking minor thirds and stacking them on top of each other. For this reason, A diminished is the same as C diminished is the same as Eb diminished; the notes repeat every minor third. It is diatonic to no key. This one comes up a lot, so you should be used to it. It can be a passing chord, because a diminished chord always wants to resolve upwards a half step, so you can approach any chord with a diminished chord a half step below. (instead of just playing C minor, you might play B dim7, then C minor) It is also sometimes used to connect two chords a whole step apart by placing a dim7 chord between them, even if the movement is descending (instead of Dm7, Cm7, you have Dm7 Dbdim7, Cm7.) You can use it to make your own progressions more interesting, and soloing over it is fun and wierd sounding. It's a good chord to be familiar with.

New Member

Joined: 01/10/01

Posts: 28

Passing Chords

Luigi;

ii V i in a minor key. (i.e. Dm7b5, G7, Cm7.)

Ahhh! okay, the above is new to me, I'll give it a try.
Typically I'm used to the m7-5 as a passing chord on the way upward for example:

Amaj6 C# m7-5 D7 D#m7-5
Amaj6 F9 Bm7 E9
Amaj6 C# m7-5 D7 D#m7-5
E7 E11 D7-5 Amaj6

I just learned the above progression last week. It gives a Texas jazz swing sound. Very cool. By the way, what modes would you recommend on the above vamp?

In this case as you mentioned the dim7 is approaching the D7 from 1/2 step below. Which when described on the base notes is a minor third movement (from the a to c#) and then a 4th. This gives a really nice bass movement.

I've been listening to Miles Davis (Kind of Blue) with Coltrane. The inside cover has a music critic discussing his knowledge of Miles music. He discusses a Lydian Chromatic scale being used. Have you heard of a Lydian chormatic?

See ya. Got any more jazz hints?

#14

Passing Chords

Luigi;

ii V i in a minor key. (i.e. Dm7b5, G7, Cm7.)

Ahhh! okay, the above is new to me, I'll give it a try.
Typically I'm used to the m7-5 as a passing chord on the way upward for example:

Amaj6 C# m7-5 D7 D#m7-5
Amaj6 F9 Bm7 E9
Amaj6 C# m7-5 D7 D#m7-5
E7 E11 D7-5 Amaj6

I just learned the above progression last week. It gives a Texas jazz swing sound. Very cool. By the way, what modes would you recommend on the above vamp?

In this case as you mentioned the dim7 is approaching the D7 from 1/2 step below. Which when described on the base notes is a minor third movement (from the a to c#) and then a 4th. This gives a really nice bass movement.

I've been listening to Miles Davis (Kind of Blue) with Coltrane. The inside cover has a music critic discussing his knowledge of Miles music. He discusses a Lydian Chromatic scale being used. Have you heard of a Lydian chormatic?

See ya. Got any more jazz hints?

Senior Member

Joined: 06/22/00

Posts: 207

Some of the chords in that progression are a bit strange. I'm not sure what you mean by C# m7-5, D#m7-5, or D7-5. If I interpret all the dashes as flats, then it makes sense, so I assume that's how it was meant. Dash usually means minor, (You often see Cm7 written as C-7) and a fifth can't be minor, so it's kind of wierd to see them written like that.
Anyway, that progression is a bit strange, though interesting. It has a lot of chords, and not a lot of quartal movement. For this reason, I'd say that you should think about each arpeggio when you solo, because the chords don't hang around on any one key signature for any long period of time that would let you sit on one or two modes. It's basically in A major, but with a lot of passing chords. No real tricks I can point out, there's only one ii V I. You can use the same guide tone ideas that apply normally here, though the movement isn't in fourths most of the time so the whole thirds and sevenths connecting won't help you out that much.
If you like soloing with scales, locrian for the m7b5 chords, mixolydian for the dominant chords, dorian for the minor chords, and ionian for those Amaj6 chords will work. Still, with a progression that has a lot of chords like this, I prefer to emphasize chord tones, and think more about arpeggios than chord scales.
As for lydian chromatic, I've never heard of that scale. I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's probably a lydian scale with some extra chromatic notes thrown in. If you're interested in learning scales that come up in jazz and you already know the modes of the major scale, the ones to start with would be the modes of the minor scales. Learn the altered (super locrian) scale, learn the phrygian dominant scale, the lydian dominant scale, the octatonic scales, etc. Don't worry too much about scales though. Scales are easy on guitar, and don't require as much practice as they do on most other instruments. I'd worry more about learning and becoming comfortable with arpeggios. While sweeping them can be fun, it is really impossible to create improvised melodies with it because the arpeggio must be played with all the notes in order from top to bottom or bottom to top. I'd suggest alternate picking each note, and doing excercises like picking every other note, so you always have each chord tone at your fingertips. I find that this helps far more for most jazz than repetetive scalar or sweep patterns.

#15

Some of the chords in that progression are a bit strange. I'm not sure what you mean by C# m7-5, D#m7-5, or D7-5. If I interpret all the dashes as flats, then it makes sense, so I assume that's how it was meant. Dash usually means minor, (You often see Cm7 written as C-7) and a fifth can't be minor, so it's kind of wierd to see them written like that.
Anyway, that progression is a bit strange, though interesting. It has a lot of chords, and not a lot of quartal movement. For this reason, I'd say that you should think about each arpeggio when you solo, because the chords don't hang around on any one key signature for any long period of time that would let you sit on one or two modes. It's basically in A major, but with a lot of passing chords. No real tricks I can point out, there's only one ii V I. You can use the same guide tone ideas that apply normally here, though the movement isn't in fourths most of the time so the whole thirds and sevenths connecting won't help you out that much.
If you like soloing with scales, locrian for the m7b5 chords, mixolydian for the dominant chords, dorian for the minor chords, and ionian for those Amaj6 chords will work. Still, with a progression that has a lot of chords like this, I prefer to emphasize chord tones, and think more about arpeggios than chord scales.
As for lydian chromatic, I've never heard of that scale. I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's probably a lydian scale with some extra chromatic notes thrown in. If you're interested in learning scales that come up in jazz and you already know the modes of the major scale, the ones to start with would be the modes of the minor scales. Learn the altered (super locrian) scale, learn the phrygian dominant scale, the lydian dominant scale, the octatonic scales, etc. Don't worry too much about scales though. Scales are easy on guitar, and don't require as much practice as they do on most other instruments. I'd worry more about learning and becoming comfortable with arpeggios. While sweeping them can be fun, it is really impossible to create improvised melodies with it because the arpeggio must be played with all the notes in order from top to bottom or bottom to top. I'd suggest alternate picking each note, and doing excercises like picking every other note, so you always have each chord tone at your fingertips. I find that this helps far more for most jazz than repetetive scalar or sweep patterns.

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Joined: 07/11/00

Posts: 581

From the very beginning, I tried my best to develop my own prsonal style, and although I have succeeded, I'm never quite satisfied. I think that its safe to say that every serious musician is always trying to find new and creative ways to spice up their style...If you feel you arent getting anywhere with your own personal experimentations, by all means take some creative insight from others. Guitar lessons are never really a bad idea, its just important not to get too comfortable with someone elses style or way of composing melodies, (to the point where you're afraid to take chances on your own.)

-Joseph, :).
www.ragmagazine.com
"Swoop and soar like the blues angels."

#16

From the very beginning, I tried my best to develop my own prsonal style, and although I have succeeded, I'm never quite satisfied. I think that its safe to say that every serious musician is always trying to find new and creative ways to spice up their style...If you feel you arent getting anywhere with your own personal experimentations, by all means take some creative insight from others. Guitar lessons are never really a bad idea, its just important not to get too comfortable with someone elses style or way of composing melodies, (to the point where you're afraid to take chances on your own.)

-Joseph, :).
www.ragmagazine.com
"Swoop and soar like the blues angels."