String gauge vs distance/travel to a correct pitch


tgchan
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tgchan
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07/28/2020 12:04 pm

Hello people,[br][br]

(same post but in an open forum so more eyes can see it and more experience can be shared)

String gauge, guitar scale (fender/gibson). I have tested 10, 9 and 8 gauge strings and travel distance in order to achieve correct pitch (half bend/full whole step bend) the travel/distance looks exactly the same or it is very similar and I can't really tell it apart.

[br]Some people say the lighter the strings the more you have to bend to get the same pitch = false* (from my brief tests)

[br]Some people say that shorter scale guitars (e.g. gibson sg) achieve the same pitch with less bending (half step/full step bend) = * false again...

[br]Different strings, scales it all resulted in identical or almost identical results. I have to bend the string the same travel/distance in order to get the correct pitch of a half step or full step.

but again... I have been half bending for almost 3 years thinking I was doing a whole step bends... so yea... (kind of sounded okay-ish and I didn't know you have to push the string so ridicilously far to get a whole step bend)

[br]Tested 3 different guitars with different scales/strings THIS TIME... with my tuner and reference notes E( B string freted on the5th ) vs E( G string freted on the 7th & bent to a whole stop)

They all needed same/very similar travel distance of a string to get it to a desired pitch.

[br]It would be nice if someone more experienced and knowledgeable could speak out on this matter/test it on their own and share the results/

I have also found this:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102088

Can't get any straight answer from it though lol... way to smart for me...


# 1
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07/28/2020 4:41 pm

Hi tgchan,

This is interesting data, but what are you planning to get from all of this? Also, just me being a normal person, I'm thinking that the "travel/distance" during a bend will always be the same regardless of string gauge.

Remember, string gauge is just the thickness of the string, and the length of the string that is being bent will always be the same if testing multiple string types on the same guitar. It sounds like you are saying that string gauge determines string length, but I'm sure that's not what you are intending.

I think the more important question to ask is again, what are you trying to get out of this?

Either way, it's an interesting experiment!

-Billy


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# 2
JeffS65
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JeffS65
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07/28/2020 5:34 pm

String guage shouldn't matter since the string is tuned to a note (eg - 'E' using the Stuttgart A440 pitch). All strings start on the same pitch as the baseline. As your fret up the notes, all your doing is shortening the string distance and therefor the note's wavelength and therby changing the pitch. The only issue between string guages is the amount of resistence the string will give you when bending. The amount of travel in a bend is nominally the same but if you went from a 10 guage set to an 8 guage set, you may be apt to over-bend and go sharp.

With that, string bending is a different animal. Versus tuning, wherein you are starting with a baseline string tension and in fretting an unbent note to change the pitch, you're shortening the string length to shorten the wavelength in order to make the note a higher pitch. With a bend, you are not shortening the string length but at actually tightening the string tension. It's the same as if you were just tightening the tuning peg.

With that in mind, given that the guitar's scale does differ and the amount of travel on a neck changes due to the scale, the amount of a bend does change due to scale. It does not change due to string guage.

However, the actual differences is so nominal that it is not really noticable to the ear. I have both Gibsons and Fenders and I don't alter my technique between them.

More important than knowing physically how far to bend a note; no when to hear a note that's in key. That's the most important skill. You could bend to a 'C' in one key and be in tune and in another, be out of tune. Same bent note, different key's. Know when to hear that it's right.


# 3
tgchan
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tgchan
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07/28/2020 8:43 pm

Thank you for replies~!!

There's lots of misleading information floating on the internet and one of those information was

"since 9s have less tension than 10s you have to push/bend them more to get to the same pitch as e.g. 10s"

Which makes sense as well somehow lol because of higher basic/starting tension you may think it needs less physical movement to get into a correct pitch.

Something like; since it has higher tension it will go quicker to X pitch with less movement/bend/ =

Tighter = more sensitive to little movements kind of thing.

But yea... I have tested 10s on Fender, 9s on Gibson, and 8s on Fender and the travel distance looks almost identical/can't tell it apart.

Of course you guys are right that only what you hear really counts, no matter what and how you bend but...

Because of super short fingers, I've got my guitar up my neck and went all the way to 8s to be able to play comfortably and ijnury free.

Forget wrapping thumb. Classical hand position is all I've got ;)

I've been doing a serious mistake of partialy bending only because I thought it's enough (+ it was really hard to push more). Now that I have checked (better late then never...) how a full step bend look/sounds like... it quite shocked me that I have to push a string that far. I was already familar with opinions thay lighter strings require more physical travel etc. but I have tested it only yesterday and I was shocked again lol

No difference bettwen string gauges or even guitar scales+strings in a distance/travel of a string to a desired pitch of a HALF STEP and a WHOLE STEP bends... or at least not visible one to me because of very close one/.

Gibson scale vs Fender scale even with Gibson(9s) Fender(10s) the travel distance seams to be identical as well.

Tested with tuner and reference notes E( B string freted on the5th ) vs E( G string freted on the 7th & bent to a whole stop)[br][br][br]"With that in mind, given that the guitar's scale does differ and the amount of travel on a neck changes due to the scale, the amount of a bend does change due to scale." - not in my test or it was so small it was hard to notice.

Some more opinions I've encountered:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1345339

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guitar/comments/3ovsjm/question_on_bending_and_string_gauge/

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/34610/string-gauge-and-bending


# 4
Carl King
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Carl King
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07/28/2020 10:41 pm

Hey tgchan,

This is interesting stuff! You're taking a scientific approach to understanding how the guitar works, and I always respect that. Thanks for sharing your results. Always good to think about and learn these things yourself rather than believing everything you hear. Good luck with the bending!

-Carl.


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# 5
tgchan
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08/02/2020 7:06 pm

https://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=20201&s_id=1591

*(lick 3 high E bend)

Fun fact I've learnt with testing scales/gauges/bending a whole step with a tuner

You can't* really bend high E string 8th fret= C to in-pocket/perfect D (a whole step).

B and other strings okay but high E? Well try it with a tuner ;p

(tested 8s, 9s and 10gauges both gibson and fender scale guitars)

*okay you technically can switching fingers or if you have enourmous ability to do it but if you've tried it you proably know what I am talking about/


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ChristopherSchlegel
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08/03/2020 11:39 am
Originally Posted by: tgchan

You can't* really bend high E string 8th fret= C to in-pocket/perfect D (a whole step).

*okay you technically can switching fingers or if you have enourmous ability to do it but if you've tried it you proably know what I am talking about/

So you mean you can't with your pinky like Anders does? For that bend in that position I typically use my ring finger.


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# 7
tgchan
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08/03/2020 12:06 pm
Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegel
Originally Posted by: tgchan

You can't* really bend high E string 8th fret= C to in-pocket/perfect D (a whole step).

*okay you technically can switching fingers or if you have enourmous ability to do it but if you've tried it you proably know what I am talking about/

So you mean you can't with your pinky like Anders does? For that bend in that position I typically use my ring finger.

and you can bend up to a perfect pitch (E string 8th fret= C to perfect D)?

I am just shocked that it needs so much travel

Sorry for being such a wuss but I am just puzzled...

Yea I had to switch my fingers not because of strenght required to pull it off but just because of mere travel of the string it has to make.

I have my guitar sitting very high (8 gauge strings) so I don't hurt my wrist with some chords (already trying to heal up an injury - hence moving guitar up almost to my neck and going down all the way to 8s).

I tried my best to capture it > E string 8th fret= C to perfect D (a whole step).

I would normally think it is because of 8 gauge strings but...

I have grabbed Fender with 10s and the same distance is required

I have grabbed Gibson with 9s and still the very same case

Funny enough B, G, etc. strings whole stop distance is relativly reasonable...

I am just puzzled...


# 8
JeffS65
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JeffS65
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08/03/2020 3:30 pm
Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegel
Originally Posted by: tgchan

You can't* really bend high E string 8th fret= C to in-pocket/perfect D (a whole step).

*okay you technically can switching fingers or if you have enourmous ability to do it but if you've tried it you proably know what I am talking about/

So you mean you can't with your pinky like Anders does? For that bend in that position I typically use my ring finger.

Can any of us, Chris?

Given that I don't particularly have long fingers or hands of any exceeding stregth, I do bend with my pinky more than I realize I do. I often see other players going up a half step (ie - 1,3,4, then bend high E pentatonic-type thing) to bend the '4' with the ring finger. Since I was mostly self-taught originally, I just thought that when you bent a string on the '4' note, it was with the pinky. So I did. Now it's just the way I do it. It's fair to say that I do that George Lynch-style where I bend with a tight cluster of my middle/ring/pinky.


# 9
Herman10
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Herman10
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08/04/2020 12:31 am

I can bend high E from 8th fret up to perfect D but if I look at your picture it seems to me that your bending technique isn't good; how do you bend? with your fingers moving outward or with rigid fingers and turning your wrist? looks to me you use the first way and that is not the good way, like that you may get the issue that the other strings might slip under your bending finger and make some unwanted noises. With the second way you can easily apply more force then when you only bend with the strength of your fingers.

Herman

BTW; I have both on my strat and les paul 9's.


# 10
tgchan
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08/04/2020 10:19 am
Originally Posted by: hsnoeckx

I can bend high E from 8th fret up to perfect D but if I look at your picture it seems to me that your bending technique isn't good; how do you bend? with your fingers moving outward or with rigid fingers and turning your wrist? looks to me you use the first way and that is not the good way, like that you may get the issue that the other strings might slip under your bending finger and make some unwanted noises. With the second way you can easily apply more force then when you only bend with the strength of your fingers.

Herman

BTW; I have both on my strat and les paul 9's.

Bloody good eye. Yea more like fingers and I am exactly getting unwanted noises sometimes heh. You definitely know what you are talking about :)

I know how you should do it but I am severly limited with high guitar position + really short fingers. Hopefully I'll find a way to enegage more wrist movement and less fingers.[br][br][br]


# 11
ChristopherSchlegel
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08/04/2020 12:02 pm
Originally Posted by: tgchan

and you can bend up to a perfect pitch (E string 8th fret= C to perfect D)?[/quote]

Well, sure. I do that multiple times every day. :) It's a pretty standard blues rock lick. That's why Anders included it in the course.

Originally Posted by: tgchan

I am just shocked that it needs so much travel[/quote]

If you aren't used to it, I can see that happening!

[quote=tgchan]I have my guitar sitting very high (8 gauge strings) so I don't hurt my wrist with some chords (already trying to heal up an injury - hence moving guitar up almost to my neck and going down all the way to 8s).

Good idea!

[quote=tgchan]I would normally think it is because of 8 gauge strings but...

I have grabbed Fender with 10s and the same distance is required

I have grabbed Gibson with 9s and still the very same case

Those are good observations. But in the end it just takes what it takes, right? :)


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# 12
tgchan
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tgchan
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08/04/2020 5:26 pm
Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegel
Originally Posted by: tgchan

and you can bend up to a perfect pitch (E string 8th fret= C to perfect D)?[/quote]

Well, sure. I do that multiple times every day. :) It's a pretty standard blues rock lick. That's why Anders included it in the course.

Originally Posted by: tgchan

I am just shocked that it needs so much travel[/quote][p]If you aren't used to it, I can see that happening!

[quote=tgchan]I have my guitar sitting very high (8 gauge strings) so I don't hurt my wrist with some chords (already trying to heal up an injury - hence moving guitar up almost to my neck and going down all the way to 8s).

Good idea!

[quote=tgchan]I would normally think it is because of 8 gauge strings but...

I have grabbed Fender with 10s and the same distance is required

I have grabbed Gibson with 9s and still the very same case

Those are good observations. But in the end it just takes what it takes, right? :)

Exactly... it only matters what comes out of what you do ;p


# 13

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