Bebop scales

Originally posted by griphon2
I have a major problem with being deleted!!!!!!!! Honest people have no right!!!!! Arrogance!!!!!

Then don't write anything offensive. I'm sure you could find better ways to say what you said. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the webmaster Jon. He and a few others suggested it as the best way to end this problem.

Chris -
I have and I was hasty on what I wrote then. I did research it after you said that, and yeah there is a some insight. Like I said I did learn something but maybe its my way of doing things. I didn't dismiss it completely, there's still some of it in the ol' noggin. Why didn't you want to bring up neopolitans???

Yes Griphon I do have that right, and you know why it was deleted. Go back and read the messages on page 5-6 I believe I asked you repeatedly to chill out. I told you what you can't do, one is you can't purposely say stuff to start trouble. I left all your expressions in just took out the stuff that was offensive or negative towards other members. I didn't just do it to you but myself, small part from Chris, and Christoph. It was THE LAST thing I wanted to do. And even though I reported your "take you on" post to the hosts and it was suggested to delete everything questionable. I gave you several chances. And if you preach what you say and you want us all to be kind, you will too.

Chris if you feel that I shouldn't have deleted your post let me know. We'll talk about it. It was the one about moderators being degrading, I erased a line since I erased the stuff before and it was negative.

I even erased my statements also. Since I was a part of the problem myself, I know it was only fair.

Griphon there will be no talking between you and me on the matter. Assume yourself ignored.

Don't worry I'm not going to go on a deleting rampage. Everyone is still free to say what they want, even disagreemest and disaprovals. I only did it with this thread for one I didn't want to close the whole thread which is what usually happens when a thread gets to such a a point and two it was just leading down a bad road with no end. Hopefully this will end it and I will also rethink my own approach towards similar incidents that may occur in the future.

Originally posted by griphon2
You're going to delete this too. How arrogant.!!!!!!! You do not have that or this right. You have NO right to delete any thing I say. How arrogant. Will court settle this? Gestapo has ended, and I'm nearly old enough to understand.
Think about this?

[Edited by griphon2 on 10-08-2003 at 09:14 PM]

Griphon, perhaps you're not old enough to understand that just because you can speak your mind doesn't mean you should. If someone were to run into a Black neighborhood screaming "I hate N*****S!" is that okay? Yes that person has the right to his opinion, but purposefully offending other people is, as you so eloquently put it, arrogant and a hole-ish (that's my new word). And yes, he does have "that or this right" he is a moderator. As a senior member you should know and understand that he has the right to delete your posts if he finds them innapropriate. He has every right to censor what deserves to be censored, and, if you notice, every post you make has a disclaimer that the moderator can change or delete it. Because of said disclaimer, even if we DID settle such a pointless bickering argument in court, you lose. I award you no points, and the game is forfeited to noticing the mistake. Even thought I may not always agree with him, I still can admit when he's right. You, griphon, are wrong...but, kind hosts, don't block him from the site. Allow griphon this one mistake, which noticing so acutely...noticed.

I've never seen this much dishonesty. You should be ashamed of yourself. It's digusting!!!. Censor this... [deleted]It's very irritating.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-09-2003 at 08:46 AM]

since this is a free site you have no right to question the actions of any of the moderators - no matter if you find them appropriate or not. you are nothing but a guest here and as such you have to behave like one. and you know that. also, if you have any problems with the actions of a moderator, you have to discuss it via email with the moderator or the webmaster, and not in the open forums. any further bickering will be instantly deleted. if you want to be accepted in a community - no matter if in real life or on the net - you have to keep it within the rules.

[Edited by Azrael on 10-09-2003 at 12:43 AM]

Thanks Az, maybe he'll listen since it is coming from someone else. He should be getting the message that anything he writes that it inappropiate by targeting anyone negatively in any way will be deleted. He should consider himself under probation, since he has been asked several times to refrain and failed to comply. He has 2 choices now he can either move on and go back to being a constructive member of this community or he can leave. That's his choice.

BTW, very well said Jolly and quite humerous too. :)

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
[ Why didn't you want to bring up neopolitans??? [/B]

What do you know about Neopolitans?

Hey I asked first. :p

The Neapolitan Sixth is the first inversion of a major chord on the flatten supertonic, the second degree of the major and minor scales used. In theory it is commonly used to intensify the approach to a dominant chord because of the tri-tone interval. Another is to reach the tonic chord in second inversion when performing a cadence.

In the key of C the flattened supertonic is D flat, the major chord would be D flat, F and A flat. Conventionally, the triad is in the first inversion, hence the 'sixth.' Therefore, the bass note of the D flat major triad is F. Another theory is it is occasionally used in root position to modulate down a semitone.

One last thing. In a major key the 5th of a Neapolitan sixth is often times lowered to keep the same chord accidentals that would be in a minor key.

Then of course there is the Neapolitan Scale.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-09-2003 at 12:55 PM]

Woah, noticing. You've got some theory under your belt man...that was like "What are neapolitans? What Are NEA???? SHABAM!!!!"

Thanks. They are really cool sounding, a colorful mix of "far-out" with predictability. In a progression, say 1, 2, 5, 1 in C major. The bass could play C, F, G, C, while the guitar plays Cmaj, Dbmaj, G7, Cmaj. The neopolitan being the second chord in that sequence.

oh, I see! I use something like that when I play blues:

It's like A7-D7-D#7-E7 and the D#7 kind of works the same way as your "neapolitans." Maybe it's the same thing (guess not since it's not a major chord but is, as you can see, a 7th), I don't know.

Neapolitan 6th chord? I was talking about the little chocolate candies with the coconut in the center.

Originally posted by Jolly McJollyson
Woah, noticing. You've got some theory under your belt man...that was like "What are neapolitans? What Are NEA???? SHABAM!!!!"

http://www.musictheoryresources.com/members/FA_neapltn.htm

'LOL' Thought the samething when I first heard that name. Never heard of the candies though, but I don't like the ice cream all that much. Not a fan of strawberry or chocolate. Vanilla covered in some hot fudge is my grub of choice. :)

On the link, I was hoping for your take on it rather than a site that explains what I just did. Especially since you said it after F, G, and I 6th chords. I believe the Neapolitan concept is an Italian concept, but I don't see the similarities. Schuman wrote something on it that was very interesting, although I can't recall what exactly it was called.

Originally posted by Jolly McJollyson
oh, I see! I use something like that when I play blues:

It's like A7-D7-D#7-E7 and the D#7 kind of works the same way as your "neapolitans." Maybe it's the same thing (guess not since it's not a major chord but is, as you can see, a 7th), I don't know.

Ah no. :) The example I posted works out extremely well cause the bass stays with a simple 1, 4, 5, 1 pattern in the major scale. All being major tones in the major scale of course. So this concept makes a point in staying major on the bass and guitar during the neopolitan. If it was Cmaj/Dmin/G7/Cmaj instead. You can see that the bass tone is major during the second chord, but the guitar part isn't. To fix that we flatten it (Db), and it becomes major with the inversion that the bass is playing also. You end up with the bass and guitar both playing a major tone on the second chord, the Neapolitan.

The progression you wrote, the D#7 pays the role of a passing tone rather than a neapolitan. Not because of the dominant 7 but because of where that chord lies in relation to the key. The neapolitan is the flattened supertonic (b2) in a key, the D#7 as you wrote it is a raised sub-dominant (#4). Try playing that D#7 as a D#7#5, it strenghten the movement.

A good way to quickly use this is a jam situation especially if you have a bass player there. Say your jamming in the key of C major and you see the bass play a F, you can play a Dbmaj chord over that F and get a Neapolitan chord just by doing that. That is just one of your options. Another thing is it doesn't matter where it goes next. The Neapolitan is not limited to going straight to the dominant or the tonic. Although I will say it is best to make the progression somehow get to the dominant chord to keep the sense of key, like the chord progression below. A cool progression in C major is Cmaj - Dbmaj/F - Bbmaj - G7. See this one went to a bVII instead of V7. Hope that helps. :)

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-10-2003 at 04:21 AM]

I posted the link becuase I found your original definition of Neapolitan very simuliar to the one on the link. Not to say you got your information from that link, but somewhere along the line you learned the correct spelling (neopolitan / neapolitan). My point being, that maybe you don't have this stuff as "under your belt" as Jolly suggested, but merely under your fingertips. Of course this is merely a speculation, not an accusation. Anyway, I would be interested in hearing about the Neapolitan scale since I have no recollection of a scale by this name.

Originally posted by Jolly McJollyson
oh, I see! I use something like that when I play blues:
It's like A7-D7-D#7-E7 and the D#7 kind of works the same way as your "neapolitans." Maybe it's the same thing (guess not since it's not a major chord but is, as you can see, a 7th), I don't know.

Everything Notice has stated about the Neapolitan is true, in modern times the Neapolitan has transformed into what is now known as the "tri-tone substitution". It is named the tri-tone sub for 2 reasons: 1) It's a chord that is subbed for another chord whose root is a tri tone away (dim.5th /aug. 4th). It was 1st, and most commonly used as a sub for the dominate 5 chord. In the key of C maj the dom. 5 is G7, a tri-tone away from G would be Db, the Neapolitan.
2) The tri-tone substitution will share the same tri-tone interval (3rd & 7th) as the chord it is subbing for (enharmonically speaking). For ex.: Db7..Db,F,Ab, Cb.....G7..G,B,D,F. The 3rd and 7th of the sub (f & Cb) is the reverse of the 3rd and 7th of the original (B & F). The major difference between the classical version of the Neapolitan and its modern contemporary is in resolution, the Nea would most commonly be resolved to the 5 chord, while the tri-tone is most commonly resolved to the tonic. Common chord progression: Dmin7...|G7...|C...|| same progression w/sub: Dmin7...|Db7...|C...||. Also its modern contemporary does not usually use the sub in first inversion as the Nea was used. This was only originally done so to avoid parallel 5ths in the voice leading, a big no no of that time.
Now, to get back to your original statement about using a tri-tone sub in a 12 bar blues. The most common variation of this would be to insert the sub for the 4 chord, usually in measure 2, but if you wanted a real tense sound you could do it in measures 5 & 6. Examples
A Blues
|A7...|D7...|A7...|....|
|D7...|....|A7...|....|
|E7...|D7...|A7...|D7.E7.||
most common used tri tone sub in a 12 bar:
|A7...|Ab7...|A7...|....|
|D7...|....|A7...|....|
|E7...|D7...|A7...|D7.E7.||
If you really wanted to push the boundaries
|A7...|D7...|A7...|....|
|Ab7...|....|A7...|....|
|E7...|D7...|A7...|D7.E7.||

Ahhh. I guess it is similar but I don't think it's close enough to suggest I copied it. Besides that's the correct definition so how else would I have said it. I have a very good textual memory so if I read something I can usually re-write it exactly months later. Especially definitions and explanations that come from books, I bet if you search though more sites you'll find each explanation to be very similar to the previous.

So No, I didn't copy it from that site or any other. I won't lie in that sometimes I will read through my own notes (which are from popular theory books) before posting to see if there is anything I may leave out or could add. I did that time but I am very aware of what a Neapolitan is. I wonder why were you looking it up?? Not that you don’t know what it is, but it sounds like a dickhead thing to do. Sorry if I’m wrong.

About the spelling, I used spell check. Sometimes I write my posts on word cause my computer has a habit of freezing up and I can save it there. Neo- just is one of those typos hard to get over, it just seems more right than Nea-. I dunno.

Looking into that link and noticing something that we both didn’t cover is the spelling. N for Neapolitan and N6 for Neapolitan sixth. There is a slight difference and I‘ll note it just to get it out of the way. The Neapolitan 6th or “N6” is the inversion that I covered in my example. Neapolitan or “N” is the chord without an inversion. It must also be noted that when a Neapolitan sixth chord is used the correct way to write it is not Dbmaj/F but from the inversion as FN6 instead. Of course that is the traditional way, if it’s easier for you to write the inversion that’s cool. So if you do see that symbol that's what it means.

To add something that chris wrote in his progressions, whenever the Neapolitan resolves to a tonic. The tonic is usually in second inversion if it‘s a cadence, so it would be A7 - Ab7 (or Ab7/C) - A7/E. I know the progression you wrote isn’t but it’s something worth noting. The rest is very cool. :)

The Neapolitan scale is 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7. The b2 and b3 are due to the root of this scale being the inversion of the Neapolitan 6th chord. The b6 being the root of the chord. I’ll explain in case of some confusion. Take the Neapolitan 6th chord Dbmaj/F. Start the Db major scale with F and you get F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db, E. The formula for the Neapolitan Scale. I have heard that there is another Neapolitan scale but I am unsure of it. This one has served me well for years. Hopefully that makes sense, it is very confusing. Ask me if your lost on a certain part.

Ok I’m done.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-10-2003 at 12:31 PM]

Originally posted by noticingthemistake

So No, I didn't copy it from that site or any other. I won't lie in that sometimes I will read through my own notes (which are from popular theory books) before posting to see if there is anything I may leave out or could add. I did that time but I am very aware of what a Neapolitan is. I wonder why were you looking it up?? Not that you don’t know what it is, but it sounds like a dickhead thing to do. Sorry if I’m wrong.

*Sometimes your definitions just seem a little to "text Book", would rather hear things in your own words.

The Neapolitan scale is 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7.

*This sounds very familiar, like a spanish variation of harmonic minor, can't place the name of the scale.

Take the Neapolitan 6th chord Dbmaj/F. Start the Db major scale with F
*this would be F phrygian

and you get F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db, E.
*this is not F phrygian

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-10-2003 at 12:31 PM] [/B]

Oops forgot about the raised 7th. I knew I would forget something. To tell you the truth I don't know the exact science behind why the 7th is left natural, maybe because of the b6-7 harmonic minor similarities or my guess because F and Dbmaj are both major tones relative to there key note, C major. E is a major seventh to F, and also natural in C major (E not Eb). Or it could be because of the need for a leading tone to F, I dunno exactly why. Point is it sounds more compatiable and better as E than as Eb. Go figure!

My personal experiences with it, the F lydian scale doesn't work well probably because of the unnatural occurs when the Neapolitan chord is played (bII). I can think of several reasons why but just don't know exactly the reason.

As for being to text book. You asked me what I knew so I gave all the facts that I was aware of. Didn't mean for it to sound textbook. Hard to write it conversely at that point. Just me I guess. :)

Goddamit . . . wasn't this thread supposed to be about Bebop scales?