Diminshed Chords


Zeppelin
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Zeppelin
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12/26/2002 12:24 am
Lately ive been learning some basic harmony stuff and my book says that the diminished chord is sometimes used as the vii step of the major scale.
the diminished septa- chord (vii-5-7) is built from 4 notes, one of which is not in the major scale.
For example: in C, the diminished septa chord of the vii step will be : B, D,F G#
so ive been wondering how come the use of this chord is not considered as a modulation to another tonality, when this chord seems to be out off the major or the minor scale of a certain key and which mode or scale can i use to imrpovise over this chord?


"They think im crazy..
but i know better.
It is not I who am crazy.
It is I who am mad.."

ren hoek
# 1
SLY
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SLY
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12/26/2002 5:09 pm
You can use it in a major/minor scale as a tri-chord , B D F only.

If you want to use the tetra-chord, you'll have to go harmonic minor (like Malmsteen) .
e.g. A harmonic minor : A B C D E F G# [A]

As a matter of fact about Diminished chords, there are only 3 diminished chords in all music.

# 2
Josh Redstone
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Josh Redstone
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12/26/2002 5:12 pm
Originally posted by SLY

As a matter of fact about Diminished chords, there are only 3 diminished chords in all music.


How does that work, if the 7th degree of a scale can be played as a diminished chord, and there are all those key signatures?
What exactly do you mean?
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# 3
SLY
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SLY
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12/26/2002 5:33 pm
Hmmm, I'll try to explain.

let's take the B diminished

B D F G# , right? ... how about playing it endlessly?
B D F G# B D F G# B D F G# ....
as you can see , this chord can be called B diminished, D diminished , F diminished or G3 diminished .... and it's still one chord , got it??

Move up 0.5 steps and make another diminished chord... that would be C diminished: C D# F# A .... this can also be called C , D# ,F# or A diminished.

OK, up another 0.5 step, C# diminished : C# E G A# ... this is C# ,E ,G or A# diminished .

Last time, up another 0.5 step , D diminished: D F G# B ... back to the original B diminished...

So they are originaly only 3 diminished chords that exist in music, but played from different roots and octaves.







# 4
Zeppelin
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Zeppelin
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12/26/2002 5:55 pm
Originally posted by SLY
Hmmm, I'll try to explain.

let's take the B diminished

B D F G# , right? ... how about playing it endlessly?
B D F G# B D F G# B D F G# ....
as you can see , this chord can be called B diminished, D diminished , F diminished or G3 diminished .... and it's still one chord , got it??

Move up 0.5 steps and make another diminished chord... that would be C diminished: C D# F# A .... this can also be called C , D# ,F# or A diminished.

OK, up another 0.5 step, C# diminished : C# E G A# ... this is C# ,E ,G or A# diminished .

Last time, up another 0.5 step , D diminished: D F G# B ... back to the original B diminished...

So they are originaly only 3 diminished chords that exist in music, but played from different roots and octaves.



and that happens because the diminished chord is built from 3 small terzas (hmm do we say terza in eglish?)
so every invertion of chord will give u another chord built from 3 1.5 intervals.




"They think im crazy..
but i know better.
It is not I who am crazy.
It is I who am mad.."

ren hoek
# 5
SLY
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12/26/2002 6:03 pm
I don't know what do you mean by "terza" , but I can see that you got the point.
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noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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12/26/2002 6:27 pm
Originally posted by SLY
Hmmm, I'll try to explain.

let's take the B diminished

B D F G# , right? ... how about playing it endlessly?
B D F G# B D F G# B D F G# ....
as you can see , this chord can be called B diminished, D diminished , F diminished or G3 diminished .... and it's still one chord , got it??


I may not be following you on this, but B diminished is ONLY THESE NOTES IN THIS ORDER B, D, F. Adding the G# makes the chord Ddimadd6. Another thing, if you uses inversion of that chord say 3rd inversion, D, F, B. Yeah, it is still Bdim in the key of C major. The Roman Numeral would be a vii (small zero may be next to it) with a small 6 beside it. Now where it becomes off is when the notes B, D, F can be interpetted as D diminished, or F diminished. I'll try to show you, D diminshed would be the notes D, F, Ab. Yeah Ab and G# are the same note but when naming chords, the correct way to write D diminished is D, F, Ab because of the formula for the diminished chord which is 1-b3-b5. It's a very small error, and unless you go into extensive music theory you would never know. Same with the F diminished which is F, Ab, B. You probably understand now, more explaination of why it is that way would just be too long.

"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
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SLY
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12/26/2002 6:59 pm
Oops, haven't noticed that naming was wrong !

The guy who started the thread "Zeppelin" wrote it that way, and I just followed him to explain my point, I didn't bother myself to count... I usualy have to count since I forgot too much about theory these days , gonna memorize them again when I have time. :D
I should have noticed that the naming isn't correct, but any way it's not a fatal error. ;)

And I still insist that all of the diminished chords reslove into 3 original... you surely know the diminished scale thing , yeah?

Also the chromatic is just one scale, the whole tone are two scales... got my point?

# 8
SLY
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12/26/2002 7:03 pm
Almost forgot to say... I was speaking from a mathematical point of veiw, not musical. :p
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noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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12/26/2002 7:44 pm
Yeah, yeah. Excuses, excuses..lol ;) Just messing. Yeah I know what you were trying to say, and what you said was right when it comes to getting your point acrossed to Zeppelin. And naw it's not a fatal error, same chord on the guitar. It may cause some confusing later, but it's an easy one to figure out.

About the 3 originals, I think what you are talking about are Inversions. In the case of B dim. Its B=root, D=second, and F= third, then with the 3 inversions, the first inversion(also known as the root inversion) is B, D, and F. Second Inversion uses the second note D, so it becomes D, F, B. Third Inversion is F, B, D. So yeah there are 3 ways to play a B dim. But a Third Inversion of the B dim is never called F diminished, they are 2 different chords. Mixing will only cause alot of confusion later. You have problems with chord progression, what key your in, what scales to use, and on and on. It's the wrong path bro.

The chromatic is just a scale with all 12 tones in it. The whole tone is based upon whole steps. The whole tone would be a good scale to play over that Bdim7 (B, D, F, Ab), but remember it's Ab not G#. ;)
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
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Josh Redstone
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Josh Redstone
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12/26/2002 8:19 pm
I think I'll just get a theory book.
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noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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12/26/2002 8:34 pm
Originally posted by Josh Redstone
I think I'll just get a theory book.



hahaha
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 12
Zeppelin
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12/27/2002 12:37 am
Hmm
now i am confused :\
B D F is a diminished triangle
but in septa chords the B D F Ab is also called diminished
(diminished triangle + diminshed septima).
this chord is not a Bdimadd6, but B-5-7 (for some reason and i dont know why the 4th note of this chord is considered as diminished 7th steph and not 6th step of the scale).
i guess the book im using is just errm badly written
and the B D F Ab should be called not dimished chord but diminished septa chord..
Anyhow, since were talking theory already, do you know any places on the net where i can learn more about harmony and melody other theory stuff?
"They think im crazy..
but i know better.
It is not I who am crazy.
It is I who am mad.."

ren hoek
# 13
noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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12/27/2002 5:34 am
Sorry Zeppelin, I didn't mean to confuse you man. I apologize, I'll try to clear it up anyways. When you say triangle, I'm guessing you mean a triad. (A three note chord) If I am wrong or you don't get it don't worry about it. In this case B, D, F is a diminished chord, and when adding an Ab to the mix. It's a minor 7th above the root B. So the spelling becomes Bdim7 (the minor is understood, so it is not written) or as you wrote, A Diminished Septa. It's probably just that the book uses a different termanology. Both are right!

Ok now when talking about steps in the scale. It's just like counting up the letters in a MAJOR SCALE PATTERN (M, M, m, M, M, M, m). Each number is a different letter in the scale. This is probably better explained in a few examples.

In C maj the notes are C, D, E, F ,G, A, B. The formula of the major scale is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. C=1, D=2, E=3, etc. Got it?

Now use the key of C minor it's C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb. The formula of the minor scale is 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 etc. C=1, D=2, but the third note is one step lower in the minor scale so it's written b3=Eb. And so on.

Hopefully you got it, if not just think about for a second.

Here's the full key starting with C... C=1, C# =#1, Db= b2, D= 2, D#= #2, Eb= b3, E=3, F=4, F#= #4, Gb= b5, G=5, G#= #5, Ab= b6, A=6, A#= #6, Bb= b7, B= 7, C=8, and on and on.

Now it's the same thing with chords, 1 represents the root of the chord instead of the key note (C = Cmaj).

In C diminished its 1, b3, b5. Looking at the key above the the notes are C, Eb, Gb. That's how it works. You better understand it now ;) just kidding. If you still are having problems, let me know I'll help you. As for a site on the net about theory, wouldn't know. I got it all from either books, music teacher, or family. But Im sure someone on here knows a place. I hope this helps, latr.

P.S now when you look at the key i wrote, you should see why the 4th note isnt called a 6th instead a 7th. You probably remember why, now that you see it. Hopefully I refreshed your mind on how it works.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 12-26-2002 at 11:47 PM]
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 14
Zeppelin
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Zeppelin
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12/27/2002 11:12 am
I guess the problem was that my book used different terminology, so it confused me abit ;)
Anyhow, thanks for your help, i got it all now, finally.
so.. back to work ;)
"They think im crazy..
but i know better.
It is not I who am crazy.
It is I who am mad.."

ren hoek
# 15
SLY
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SLY
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12/27/2002 12:05 pm
But the thing "noticingthemistake" mentioned about chord naming is right... An Amin is A C E ... it should not be called A B# Fb or anything else... you count from the root 1 3 5 in the scale you're using... same if you add a 7th, shouldn't be confusing.
# 16

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