Relative minor?!


ethanquar
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ethanquar
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04/25/2020 3:05 pm

How would you know if a song is in a minor key or major key, just by looking at the chords? The chords of C major and A minor are identical right? So how would I know what key the song falls under? That would also bring up the question of why a relative minor needs to exist? Like a 2-5-1 in E minor would be the same as a 7-3-6 progession in G major, so why? HELP!?


# 1
ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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04/25/2020 7:48 pm
Originally Posted by: ethanquarHow would you know if a song is in a minor key or major key, just by looking at the chords?[/quote]

That might not be enough information to know for certain. But in general you can look at the relationship between all the chords used & in which order. Frequently a song will start or end on the tonic chord. That can be one big clue.

But the deeper answer here is that you need to know the full context of the song. This includes all the chords used, which order & just as importantly the melody, which will tell you the scale being used. All of those together will help you identify the key signature.

I cover this in my collections on improv & music theory.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/music-theory

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/learning-to-improvise

In particular there is a discussion of how to identify key signature in the first tutorial on improv that might help you with this specific issue.

Originally Posted by: ethanquarBut The chords of C major and A minor are identical right? So how would I know what key the song falls under?[/quote]

Yes, in the abstract they are. But this is like saying all English words use the same 26 letters from the same alphabet, so how can you tell one word from another? Or how can you tell what is a question or an declarative statement? Because it depends on the specific letters or words used in a specific order.

The answer is the same: you need the full context.

[quote=ethanquar]That would also bring up the question of why a relative minor needs to exist?

Relative minor needs to exist because it is a useful concept in music theory.

Often most of a song will be in a major key. But only one section (a pre-chorus, or bridge) is in relative minor for dramatic contrast. And often minor keys are harmonized differently so the V becomes major for a stronger leading tone.

Let's use the song 'Yesterday' as a practical example.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1811

The song is in the key of G major. The beginning chord progression & melody makes this easy to hear & see.

But notice the little modulation in the 2nd measure of the verse:

F#m > B7

That leads to an E minor in the next measure. So we have this:

G (I) > F#m (ii of vi) > B7 (V of vi) > Em (vi) > C (IV) > D (V) then back to G (I)

Essentially this is just (I) > (vi) > (IV) > (V) with a fancy, dramatic way of getting from I to vi. And the melody is clearly on G major scale notes, emphasizing chord tones, changing to reflect the brief modulation.

Notice when we get to the bridge we start with the modulation that moves to Emin. And the melody emphasized the chord tones, leading to a sadder sound. So we can say that the bridge sounds like it's in relative minor. Because it starts with the modulation leading to the Emin chord, and eventually winds it's way back to G major.

F#m (ii of vi) > B7 (V of vi) > Em (vi) > C (IV) > Am (ii) > D (V) > G (I)

Now we can look at part of this as a brief change to relative minor! And importantly, notice how sad it sounds!

F#m (ii) > B7 (V) > Em (i)

And that simplifies the symbols in that section. Of course at some point we start looking at how it relates back to the home key of G major.

C (IV) > Am (ii) > D (V) > G (I)

Some songs have even more of an extended relative minor section. Other examples inlcude 'When I'm 64', 'We 3 Kings', 'Greensleeves'.

[quote=ethanquar]Like a 2-5-1 in E minor would be the same as a 7-3-6 progession in G major, so why?

Another more general answer is that it is more common to think of chords in terms of how they relate to the tonic chord. So in general it's more efficient to use 2-5-1, than to use 7-3-6. But again it always depends on the overall context of the song as determined by the chords, their progression order & the melody notes.

Relative minor (or major) is used when it helps to clarify the structure of the song to understand how the sections relate to each other.

Hope that helps!


Christopher Schlegel
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# 2
ethanquar
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ethanquar
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04/26/2020 7:11 am

Thanks so much that really clears things up. For the part where you reference 'Yesterday', in simple terms, you say that the melody remains more or less constant (or the emotional essence of the melody), but the chords behind it go into a relative minor progression, so the even though the melody is the same, how it relates to the chords, and the feel of the song in general, changes? Am I making sense or do I have no idea what you're talking about?

Also we can tell when a song is having a brief moment of relative minor when the chord that is being worked towards, and arrived at (for a brief moment in the song at least), is the relative minor chord? Thanks again this is really helping me out


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ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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04/26/2020 3:44 pm
Originally Posted by: ethanquar

Thanks so much that really clears things up.[/quote][p]Good deal!

Originally Posted by: ethanquarFor the part where you reference 'Yesterday', in simple terms, you say that the melody remains more or less constant (or the emotional essence of the melody),

Not exactly. The melody also slightly changes along with the chords. And this slight alteration of both melody & chords is exactly what creates the sadder sound & the valid use for relative minor!

Beginning with "Why she had to go . . ." we get a melody that reflects relative minor:

"Why she..." - B note 5th of E min chord.

"had to go" - E > F# > G 1st, 2nd & minor 3rd of Emin chord.

"Why she" is a pickup that leads into the bridge. So "had to go" is rhythmically the start of the bridge. And playing an E minor chord along with the root note, 2nd & minor 3rd of that chord. So you can think of it as the vi chord in G major, but it sounds more like the i chord of E minor at that point.

To be fair this is a relatively complex issue for beginner material. But it does exist, so you need to at least be aware of it for future reference even if you don't grasp every little detail right away. Make sense?

Side note: this example is more complicated than it needs to be because the song is tuned & played a whole step lower in pitch than written!

[quote=ethanquar]Also we can tell when a song is having a brief moment of relative minor when the chord that is being worked towards, and arrived at (for a brief moment in the song at least), is the relative minor chord?

Yes, that is a big clue. And some songs, and longer classical pieces have whole sections in minor that make it more obvious. In popular music you find relative major & minor is used to create a contrasting sound from section to section quite often.

Hope that helps!


Christopher Schlegel
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ethanquar
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ethanquar
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04/28/2020 7:25 am

Speaking of The Beatles and unique chord progressions, I'm really intrested in just learning general chord theory and harmony, but a lot of the lessons here are very genre oriented. Is there a place here where I can learn about general chords and harmony (if that even exists)? I solid blank slate where I could write my own music?


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ethanquar
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ethanquar
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04/28/2020 7:46 am

There are just so many lessons here that it is quite overwhelming. The blues, rock, country and acoustic courses are formatted nicely, but upon completetion, I genuinely don't know where to go from there. Like for example, if I'd like to learn more about improvisation, there are so many lessons on improvisation by so many teachers, and some of the lessons overlap with what I'd learned in Blues and Rock. Or maybe I'd want to learn another genre like metal or funk, but everything in those sections are pieced kind of randomly; I click on the metal category, and I don't know whether I should begin by studying a metal artist, learn a metal technique, learn a metal song, etc. Any advice for navigating through this hurricane of guitar knowledge? Maybe I could just ask for your advice on where to go when I would like to learn something.


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ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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04/28/2020 1:28 pm
Originally Posted by: ethanquar

Is there a place here where I can learn about general chords and harmony (if that even exists)?

[p]Yes, in my music theory tutorial collection.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/music-theory

There are 2 tutorials in that collection that explicitly focus on harmonizing the major & minor scales.


Christopher Schlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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04/28/2020 1:36 pm
Originally Posted by: ethanquarThere are just so many lessons here that it is quite overwhelming.[/quote]

Yes, there are! That's what the forum is for: to ask questions & help you find what you are looking for! :)[br][br]

Originally Posted by: ethanquarThe blues, rock, country and acoustic courses are formatted nicely, but upon completetion, I genuinely don't know where to go from there.[/quote][p]Does this mean you've completed all the courses & can play all the material in them?

If so, then you need to start working on learning songs. If not, then you need to pick a course & really work on it until you understand all the ideas & can play all the techniques.

Originally Posted by: ethanquarLike for example, if I'd like to learn more about improvisation, there are so many lessons on improvisation by so many teachers, and some of the lessons overlap with what I'd learned in Blues and Rock.

You've already worked through my improvisation collection?

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/learning-to-improvise

And learning the solos in songs by your favorite artists is another great way to do this. In fact this is how many players learn improv: listen to & emulate artists they like & experiment with their own ideas based on that initial imitation.

Which artists do you like? How many of their songs or solos can you play?

[quote=ethanquar]Or maybe I'd want to learn another genre like metal or funk, but everything in those sections are pieced kind of randomly; I click on the metal category, and I don't know whether I should begin by studying a metal artist, learn a metal technique, learn a metal song, etc. Any advice for navigating through this hurricane of guitar knowledge?

Some genres are more represented on GT than others.

But let's back up a step here: exactly where are you in the process? What is your knowledge & skill level?

[quote=ethanquar]Maybe I could just ask for your advice on where to go when I would like to learn something.

Absolutely! We encourage all GT users to use the forum to ask for help.


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ethanquar
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ethanquar
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04/30/2020 4:36 am

I'm still working on the rock stuff, just thinking ahead; I'll definitely come here for advice when I get to the point where I'd need it. Thanks again


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ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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05/01/2020 1:25 pm
Originally Posted by: ethanquar

I'm still working on the rock stuff, just thinking ahead; I'll definitely come here for advice when I get to the point where I'd need it. Thanks again

Good deal! Best of success with the rock courses!


Christopher Schlegel
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