The difference between teaching and leading one to discover

I'm 58. I've been hearing teachers and reading in books and seeing video telling me "scales" are important and to practice them. That gives me no clue as to how they should become important to me. And I've stopped and started playing guitar and bass many times since the Beatles came out when I was 8. I even appeared to be a very capable bass player and played in a band for some years. But I simply don't know what goes on in a guitarist's mind. What should I be thinking? Apparently there's a major difference between telling someone something and leading them to "discover" its importance. So, I was thinking, wouldn't it be useful to have a bunch of etudes or song segments and a visual cue to tell us to play a scale of a certain type in tempo at a certain spot. And that way we'd have contexts for "discovering" scales and how to innovate with them as opposed to being told just what it is. I'm not an automaton. I need to be led. And a computer can lead. Is there anything like that here already? I'm new to GT. Thanks.

Hey & welcome to GT!

Originally Posted by: TerranautI even appeared to be a very capable bass player and played in a band for some years. But I simply don't know what goes on in a guitarist's mind. What should I be thinking?[/quote]
The same thing as a bass player. Just more of it. :p

Seriously, if you played bass on songs, then you were already using scales & outlining chord tones. At that point you might not have known why you were playing certain notes & patterns on the fretboard. But if what you played sounded right, then you were playing scales & chords.

Practicing scales & chords in a systematic manner has 2 purposes.

1. Gain dexterity on your instrument.
2. Train your ear & mind to be aware of the raw materials of music.
[QUOTE=Terranaut]
So, I was thinking, wouldn't it be useful to have a bunch of etudes or song segments and a visual cue to tell us to play a scale of a certain type in tempo at a certain spot.
...
Is there anything like that here already? I'm new to GT.

If you haven't already, then you should work through the Core Learning System. At the very least, you should work through Guitar Fundamentals 1 & 2.

http://www.guitartricks.com/corelearningsystem.php

It sounds like what you are after is conceptual knowledge. GF2 is especially good for learning the basic concepts of music theory & just as importantly, how to apply those concepts.

If your knowledge & skill level is beyond all that, then I've got more advanced music theory & application tutorials. Just let me know what your skill level is & what your goals are.

But, please start at GF1 & 2. It is worth it for the knowledge &, or review! Have fun. :)

I play what they call "by ear" which doesn't mean anything really except that I probably have developed a lot of bad habits that just happen to work. I know the open forms by heart fluidly and barre forms. I'm to a point where if someone says play a C7 I know two ways to do it. But everything is down toward the open forms. I understand how to make them all minors, 7th, and major 7ths but would have to look up minor 7ths except a few that are so familiar on Beatle songs--or "add 9" or sus 2 or sus 4. I want to learn how to do some flourishes and embellishements and get the basics down of roots music. I'm past my rock age. I saw Pink Floyd in concert 22 times. The Kinks may 25. Kinks songs I go back to for fun because they are rarely anything more than majors, minors and a rare 7th. But ask me to know the next note in a turn-around like "Gallon of Gas" and I would be on thin ice. Do guitarists "think ahead" at what they do. Being told "what" does not answer "why". And to akid or grand-dad "why" is the key to caring and making sure you get it right. I know the fret board and musical system. I just don't know how to "see" where the things that make real musicians sound like real musicians fit by practicing blind scales. Should I be thinking whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half (intervals in major scale for instance)? Done that. It stinks and doesn't really add up to anything. What does one "think" and "why"? Perhaps my etude idea might help show that. I don't know. Thanks.

Originally Posted by: TerranautI want to learn how to do some flourishes and embellishements and get the basics down of roots music.
[/quote]
What style or genre of music do you mean by roots music? Blues, country, early rock?

Originally Posted by: TerranautShould I be thinking whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half (intervals in major scale for instance)? Done that. It stinks and doesn't really add up to anything.

OK, I get what you are saying here. If you don't know what to do with a scale it is frustrating. But, this sounds like you know & can play major diatonic scales & that's good! I'm going to assume you also already know minor diatonic and pentatonic major & minor. But you don't know what to do with them or why.
[QUOTE=Terranaut]
Ok, so What does one "think" and "why"? Perhaps my etude idea might help show that.

One thinks in terms of scale degrees that match chord tones.

These tutorials cover the basics of improvisation using that fundamental concept. But be warned, they assume you already know a lot of the info I mentioned that is covered in the GF2 course.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=876
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=483
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=491

Or if you are interested in a blues style of improvisation, then these tutorials cover how to play over a I-IV-V basic 12 bar blues progression using pentatonic scales as a visual reference, but adding diatonic notes when targeting chord tones.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=217
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=232
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=826
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=244

If you want to go a little further, these tutorials cover how to use scales to play jazz.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1757
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1205

Now, those are all things to do with scales. So, you can apply the knowledge! But, it might be helpful to have a look at these tutorials that teach the basics of music theory. It sounds like someone told you to play scales without even telling you why scales are so valuable. These tutorials explain why!

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=495
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=835

Hope this helps! Ask more if necessary & have fun!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelWhat style or genre of music do you mean by roots music? Blues, country, early rock?

OK, I get what you are saying here. If you don't know what to do with a scale it is frustrating. But, this sounds like you know & can play major diatonic scales & that's good! I'm going to assume you also already know minor diatonic and pentatonic major & minor. But you don't know what to do with them or why.

One thinks in terms of scale degrees that match chord tones.

These tutorials cover the basics of improvisation using that fundamental concept. But be warned, they assume you already know a lot of the info I mentioned that is covered in the GF2 course.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=876
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=483
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=491

Or if you are interested in a blues style of improvisation, then these tutorials cover how to play over a I-IV-V basic 12 bar blues progression using pentatonic scales as a visual reference, but adding diatonic notes when targeting chord tones.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=217
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=232
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=826
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=244

If you want to go a little further, these tutorials cover how to use scales to play jazz.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1757
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1205

Now, those are all things to do with scales. So, you can apply the knowledge! But, it might be helpful to have a look at these tutorials that teach the basics of music theory. It sounds like someone told you to play scales without even telling you why scales are so valuable. These tutorials explain why!

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=495
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=835

Hope this helps! Ask more if necessary & have fun!

Yes, by roots music I mean the blues, country, bluegrass--the older and initiating forms of pop music that became later built upon to become today's varying forms of sophisticated stuff--kinda like what the Brits did with music Americans looked down on. It is elemental and I'm good with playing it acoustic and have no intention of getting any electric guitars and going through all the learning stuff that is in the way today like amp modelling and interface differences in computer software and even the annoying array of button and dial combos on a Fender Mustang I V2 which I just sold along with my strat. I have Taylor 210 CE and Behringer acoutic amp that I learned how to use within minutes of reading the manual and it has effects. I blundered and bought the Zoom A3 accoustic guitar modeler and though i could get some nice sounds out of it, it was way way too hard to learn to tweak. So I sent it back and am keeping it just to music without any other learning curves getting in the way.

I am not up on the scales you mentioned but that is easy to loo up and practice. And I sampled the first link on improvisation and it seems more like where I can go with some practice and concentration. Most of the other stuff Ive done in order has been so elementary it's annoying. I don't need the musician to keep reminding me where on the fret to put my finger for instance. Or what that red head beat that strum pattern to death. But I've been though that. What you suggest below I will get right on. Thanks for the lead on where to go. I can play a lot of songs and figure them out with ease but there are holes in my understanding as to how to think. I can't go into a music store and just play some little thing that's gonna wow anyone, I have to sit down and play a song I learned. But I have never created a piece of music of my own or learned anything about the blues but how to play the rhythm and some basic turn arounds. I hope this will open my mind to what I've been lacking. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by: TerranautYes, by roots music I mean the blues, country, bluegrass...[/quote]
OK, good deal. Thanks for the detailed reply. That helps a lot in pointing users in the right direction.

In GF2 I cover a lot of the basics of what scales are, why they are important & how to actually use them. For example, you might know how to do something like walking in between chords. But I explain the conceptual process in these tutorials from GF2.

Scale And Chord Relationships

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=426
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=427
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=428

Please make sure to look at the bottom of each lesson page to see the fretboard graphics in order to better visualize what I am teaching in the videos.

That sort of thing is widely used in blues, country, bluegrass, early rock. Once you understand why it's done, it can help you play much more musically.
[QUOTE=Terranaut]And I sampled the first link on improvisation and it seems more like where I can go with some practice and concentration.

Good deal. This tutorials I linked above on Scale & Chord Relationships are a necessary foundation for expanding into those improvisation lessons. So, I encourage you to tackle them first, then go to the improvisation lessons I mentioned previously.

I understand it can get frustrating to watch stuff you already know how to do. But, please keep in mind we have to plan for every possible skill level of student! :) That's what the forum is for: to speak up like you've done & ask for an instructor to point you in the right direction. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to do our job!

Please ask more when & if necessary. I wish you the best of success with your guitar learning & playing!

I started a paid subscription yesterday. Previous comments were made during the trial. I've learned useful stuff already. I learned how to play "Change the World" by Clapton off of YouTube. But the version on here by Showalter is supremo. Now I have to unlearn some of my "make do(s)" but I can handle some of things I either invented or looked for in others to get around some the difficult fingerings that were tough. Although I have no original ideas for music I'm finding a lot of techniques to learn coming to me like using a rubber stamp chord block, writing tab and being able to play it easier. What I need is the familiarity of note names on the fretboard because that dude Showalter for instance talked too fast. I used my screen capturing software to print it all out because I'm blocked from downloading. But no one has to worry about me profiting with dues. It's just for me to look at because I can't keep up with his knowledge yet the way he calls out note on the neck. If he called out by fret and finger I could write the tab, but he calls them out by note name and I have to slow way down to find them that way still. It would be ideal to have the music inset with the teacher as an overlay. Perhaps you guys will get to that before I get tool old and croak. LOL